Billups vs. Iverson

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by SmartIversonFan, Jan 26, 2009.

  1. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    No problem. It was a great question.
     
  2. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    So what does our offense look like if we "Let AI be AI". What shots can we expect our team to be taking?
     
  3. Star Jones

    Star Jones First Round Draft Pick

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    Let there be no confusion at all, Philadelphia was built around Larry and Allen was just there. Larry enjoys "teaching" the game and he prefers the players that he would have to teach.

    Players that are talented without his influence do not interest him. Never have, never will. He talks a good game, but he wants to be considered the sole reason as to why a team was able to rise from the ashes and win a championship.

    That's why he screwed up the Olympic team. He wanted to play the lesser players like Stephon over LeBron and Carmelo. He wanted to show that he could "bring out something never seen before" in various players.

    What plays???

    The offense is primarily: get the ball, drive to the rim, go as far as you can, shoot it. Nobody knows where they are going because there is no predetermined destination for anybody outside of Richard and even he has to get ball, drive, shoot.

    Nobody was out a significant time last year except for Nene. At least, I don't recall anyone other than him.
     
  4. Jewelz0376

    Jewelz0376 First Round Draft Pick

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    Denver last year had Nene out and Atkins out most of the year..but Melo, Jr Smith, Keiza, KMart all played most of the season except for maybe a game here and there...
     
  5. Jewelz0376

    Jewelz0376 First Round Draft Pick

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    LP i got a couple questions for you??

    1) Name me a season where Philly real talent around him that can win since you say they tried to build around him??

    2) You keep asking about teammates being unable to play with him but you dont think Denver proved you can play with him on offense last year with Ai being the main ball handler??
     
  6. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    What plays???

    The offense is primarily: get the ball, drive to the rim, go as far as you can, shoot it. Nobody knows where they are going because there is no predetermined destination for anybody outside of Richard and even he has to get ball, drive, shoot.

    Nobody was out a significant time last year except for Nene. At least, I don't recall anyone other than him.[/QUOTE]

    So was this the change that was made as an attempt to play to AI's style or something else?

    I guess I am still looking for the answer to my original question. I read the article over on the "Pistons have no answers for how to play with Iverson" thread. In the article AI says:

    "You've seen me throughout my career and you can see for yourself," he said. "If you've been watching and paying attention to how I've played all my career, then you can see the difference from how I used to play to how I'm playing now. It's easy. It's easy for anybody to see. I'm 33 years old, and I'm a positive man. I'm going to stick with it regardless and I'm going to do whatever it takes for me to help my teammates."

    I am not sure what he has changed?? Is it just that he is taking less shots, that he is coming off screens instead of bringing the ball up the court, what has he changed and if he went back to "how he has played"; what would our offense look like then???
     
  7. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    What did Denver's offense look like last year? Was it structured at all or did they just try to run people out of the gym? I don't remember watching them last year. Were they high scorers, was Carmello working on the block or shooting jump shots? What did they look like?
     
  8. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    Found some of my answers:

    LAst year Denver took 44% of their shots within the first 10 seconds of the shot clock and another 28% between 11 and 15 seconds. That means that 72% of their shots were up after 15 seconds were gone on the shot clock. The other part of that is the Nuggets rebounded 30% of those misses.

    Right now we are only taking 33% of our shots in the first 10 seconds and another 22% between 11 and 15 seconds. The other part of that is we are only rebounding 27% of those misses.

    Another telling fact is that Denver only took 8% of their shots in the last 4 seconds of the shot clock while this year we are shooting 21% of our shots with less then 4 seconds left. Wonder how many of those are desperation shots??

    All stats come from 82games.com.
     
  9. Star Jones

    Star Jones First Round Draft Pick

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    While I'll never say that Denver had some sort of highly designed, structured offense, whatever it was, it flowed 80% of the time. There was movement, there was chemistry and there was trust. The only player that looked out of place to me was Marcus. I thought he was the ball stopper with that ridiculous 18 foot jumper that rarely went in.

    Kenyon, who I believe is smarter than most, would consistently pull his man out of the lane and then follow in the guard for the dump off or the rebound. He understood who he was playing with in Carmelo, Allen and J.R..

    Linas rarely overstepped and when I say that, I mean it wasn't about "his touches" in numbers, but in production. He wasn't competing with Carmelo or Allen, but he did play with them. I can't say that I believe that the Pistons are playing with each other. Sometimes, it looks like it's a competition between all of them, including Tayshaun and even down to Arron. The only guy that I can honestly say is playing with and not against is Kwame.

    As to converting the offense to play with Allen, I don't know. What I would like to know is where are all those plays that Allen was mooning over in his first days of practice? I was keenly looking for these different offensive sets, but all I see is old Philadelphia plays, which makes me believe even more that Michael has either given up or never tried.

    There are no plays for Rodney. There are no plays for Allen. There are no plays for Rasheed or Tayshaun. Everything they do, is created on the fly by themselves. The play isn't called, their number is and they either figure it out or hustle back down for defense.

    The plays for Richard are from six years ago, so what has Michael or another coach created for this team? Nothing as far as I can see.
     
  10. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    As far as Denver's offense, it scored the exact same # of points per 100 possessions as it does this year- 110. The difference is that they had 100 possessions per game last year and this year it is only 94. It's slower, but efficiency is the same.

    On a different note:

    For some reason, I was thinking that AI was having a career low shooting year at .420. Not sure why I thought that.

    After looking it up, his career average is .426, and his playoff average is .401. So I guess we are getting the expected package. He's had 6 other seasons with worse shooting I believe.


    My question is, are there any players in the HOF with a lower career shooting percentage or a lower playoff shooting percentage? Not sure how that would be looked up.
     
  11. Jewelz0376

    Jewelz0376 First Round Draft Pick

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    It probably seems like AI is having a bad shooting season because both seasons in denver he shot 46%..

    As far as you other question goes I dont know where to find that but i posted this in one of my other posts: Career Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating - Basketball-Reference.com

    It shows where Iverson ranks in career PER...Maybe that might give you a little what your looking for...if not or you've already seen this...sorry for wasting your time lol..
     
  12. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    I think they did put talent around him that year they went deep into the PO's, It was just defensive talent. That is my point though referencing PHI. They weren't sure what to do because they weren't sure how you build around AI. It looked to me like they were trying to build around him, but couldn't figure out what exactly that entailed.

    The offensive options; the other AI and the PHI team that AI played with along with Webber have all made references in one way or another to how difficult it is to play with AI. Not just because he dominates the ball, but you don't know when or where your shots are coming from. Towards the end of AI's career there, it was made to seem that that team was full of D-leaguers. Insert Andre Miller and now all a sudden the team looks like it has good players, and multiple weapons. What was about AI that made Igudola, etc. unable to co-exist with him?

    Piston fans got an up close and personal look at that team when they took us to 6 games.

    ------------

    As for Denver, their offensive system was perfect for AI since there was essentially no offensive systeam. AI/Melo took a majority of the team's shots. So arguing that he played with others doesn't really work IMO unless you count that he played well with Melo. I'm not sure what DEN assists #'s were, but from watching it looked they played pretty individual basketball (quick shots, minimal passing), and got by on the pure offensive talent they had. But that style will never work in the PO's as evidenced by PHX and DEN so besides that style how is he effective ?

    We're not going to play PHX style basketball, and trying to play half-court is unsuccessful. So i'm not sure what the solution would be. I don't think you can be a half/half team. You have to have an identity, and a dominant system. The teams that flutter between things are usually the mediocre ones. What team could we be with AI and stillhave success?
    '
    The million dollar question. What i've seen so far when AI takes over, i don't like; random passing where someone has to either chase the ball down or he tosses the ball to them in a very difficult position to make a play. The one thing he has shown that he can do well is pass to the bigs under the basket. He used to be the only one who looked for Brown/Amir, etc. although the rest of the team might be getting it now. It seemed to take them about half the season to realize that Amir is practically always open.
     
  13. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    not to get technical but that series went 5 games. AI single-handedly won Game 3 by dropping 37/15.
     
  14. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    I meant the new and improved Sixers team that took us to 6.
     
  15. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    woops my bad :)
     
  16. detteam

    detteam All-Star

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    Chauncey was just interviewed on PTI. He said he thinks the Pistons would have won 3 championships had we drafted Melo. Sounds about right to me.
     
  17. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    OK Chauncey, Stop talking.
     
  18. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Well, we almost did without him anyways.

    If LB would have been an emotional rock of stability, we probably could have squeezed another one out too. If Sheed could have a defensive mulligan on Horry. If if's and but's were candy and nuts...
     
  19. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    And deep pockets. Still, why be an owner if it just going to be an extension of a driven business mode...that is all pseudo entrepreneurship. Now, if you want to talk about Cuban....

    Old money vs. new money and girls just want to have fun.
     
  20. BB4L11

    BB4L11 First Round Draft Pick

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    Billups makes people better around him, it's not a coincidence that the Nuggets are playing better now that he is there, numbers don't have a lot to do with it.

    We made the wrong decision on that one and we have to live with it.
     

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