Billups vs. Iverson

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by SmartIversonFan, Jan 26, 2009.

  1. AI IS GOD

    AI IS GOD Second Round Draft Pick

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    I fail to see that. Weaker conference + healthy nene over camby. YET They are still a 50-win team and not contenders.
  2. Latinoking90

    Latinoking90 Bench Warmer

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    All good PGs make the team better. PGs are similar to a QB of the NFL.

    A. The West is still stronger.
    B. Camby was the only player who played defense better, but not Chauncey has coached them to play it as well.
    C. They are not contenders...but are still competitive.
  3. Star Jones

    Star Jones First Round Draft Pick

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    They have to win a playoff series. Just one, under George Karl, and then I'll say the deal worked out in Denver's favor.
  4. Cartman11

    Cartman11 Second Round Draft Pick

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    I really think that the Nuggets have given Chauncey the right to totally revamp the way that they play their game. AI hasn't been given this opportunity, just look at his numbers. I'm just saying that the Pistons should make changes to fit AI, instead of AI having to make all of the changes to fit the Pistons. As for me, I blame Michael Curry MUCH more than AI.
  5. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    I agree 100%. I've been saying for a while now that they should sign some hunch backs so they can field all the passes he throws at people's feet.
  6. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    Nice Pass!

    [​IMG]
  7. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    We should just close this thread. It's obvious who the winner is/was (pun intended). And no one is going to admit that they were wrong about the trade.

    Cap space till the end!!

    <this post is a result of the crap i am now forced to watch that is allegedly the Pistons>
  8. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    If Denver doesn't do anything, then there is no clear winner. It's premature to call this deal, when we haven't used any of the cap space. If trading Billups turns into a max player, and Denver doesn't advance beyond the second round, I can't see how any would call this a loss for the Pistons.

    So what if Chauncey racks up regular season wins in Denver? That doesn't validate him. He is a regular season all-star, and an average post-season player. We already know that from 6 seasons in Detroit.
  9. tremaine

    tremaine Second Round Draft Pick

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    Yeah, I just read this thread because I'm closely following both the Nuggets and the Pistons this year. I don't have a lot of time now to type out big proofs, but I thought I'd throw in my views into the mix.

    1. Chauncey Billups was not on the team when the Nuggets decided to change their stripes and become a defensive type team. The decision was made by some combination of the managment and George Karl. Chauncey is running the offense, George Karl is running the defense, much as I dislike to admit that Karl is doing anything that is good.

    2. The Nuggets indeed are most likely not going to win a playoff series, because they have some no name players who will be road kill against high quality, experienced players in the playoffs. The Nuggets are the type of franchise which is happy just to win in the regular season, they truly not very concerned about the playoffs.

    So when all is said and done, who cares how wonderful a leader Chauncey Billups is? Actually, he's not such a great motivator; he just has a very high IQ and leads as the offensive coach so to speak. Karl doesn't know much of anything about effective basketball offense, so Chauncey is making up for that.

    3. Nene, Chris Andersen, Renaldo Balkman, and Chauncey are the big upside surprises for the Nuggets, not just Chauncey alone.

    4. Every week somewhere on the internet I read another argument about Allen Iverson. There have to be more arguments about him than about any other player.

    I havn't seen them here much, but there are a lot of Iverson haters, posters who hardly try to hide how their hatred is driving their statements rather than the other way around. The haters don't really care what the real facts are.

    Everyone is at least slightly confused about AI; no one is really sure of what they are saying. The AI Puzzle is: how can a Hall of Fame player be a player who makes your team worse? This doesn't make any sense.

    The answer goes way, way back in time, just like any good drama or horror movie mystery.

    The answer, which Star Jones apparently has realized, (and out of hundreds and hundreds of articles and posts I've never until now seen anyone other than me blame Larry Brown) is that Iverson was coached incorrectly by Larry Brown, the only American Coach who screwed up the Olympics.

    I thank Star Jones for giving me a new clue I didn't have before, which is that Brown's problem may be that he doesn't much like coaching very talented players.

    Iverson was always a PG in high school, college, and in his rookie of the year season. But when Larry Brown came along, he stuffed Iverson into the 2-guard slot and told him to shoot as much as he wanted because he could not stand the idea of having him as PG, because he wanted to have a lot of control over the offense and he knew Iverson wouldn't do what he wanted.

    There is no evidence that Brown thought that Iverson would shoot so well at 2-guard that it would be a net plus for the 76'ers, which means he had ulterior motives. Brown messed up, pure and simple.

    You have to understand that back in those days Iverson was immature and did in fact want things mostly his way, and Brown didn't know how to react other than to move Iverson to a new position, because he had to maintain control over the offense through his PG and he knew Iverson would not follow all his demands.

    In general, Iverson and Brown could not stand each other in the first few years, and they fought on the sidelines, in the lockerroom, and even in the newspapers.

    Ever since, Iverson has been a combo guard, playing both guard positions at the same time, which is why teammates are confused and can't score as well as they can with the regular 1 and regular 2 guard. He plays combo all the time, but even after Brown left the 76'ers, Iverson was often designated 2-guard, which offensively is confusing and defensively is a joke, because now you have two short guards when in basketball you can only afford one at a time. Iverson is only 6 foot tall if you stretch it folks. Since when does someone that short play any other postion other than PG, and hell, even PGs are generally taller than that.

    Pistons fans have called having two small guards "small ball," which everyone has realized is a disaster, especially for a defensive minded team.

    Bottom line: Iverson never should have been moved from 1-guard to 2-guard, because he became a two position oddity that confuses the hell out of everyone to this day. And so you have these endless internet discussions about Iverson this and Iverson that and Iverson the other thing.

    You see, some decisions can change the future, either for the better or the worse. It seems to me that the Brown decison regarding Iverson changed history for the worse. But real life is not like "LOST," we can't go back in time and change things.

    That's all I have time for now, I'll try to come here more often.
  10. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I hope so. That was a strong post. Thanks tremaine.
  11. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    We disagree on what Billups meant to this team so when i measure who won the trade, i inevitably include what this team would like IMO with CB so it's kinda a double negative. Also i'll leave the average post-season player alone for the sake of conserving space.

    However, even without that i think you can call DEN the winner. Whether or not it results in the WCF or a championship for DEN, the trade has reinvigorated their franchise, and put them in a good spot to be a good team for a long time and add pieces along the way. On our side, the trade has really broken the team, and left us floundering as to what to do next and reliant on cap space that is no shape or form going to garauntee landing a "superstar".

    I am not optimistic about the cap space because i don't think it's going to turn into a true max player. It will either result in us overpaying someone or hopefully being smart with the money which i doubt because the fan sentiment will be where's our "superstar" ? I guess you can call that pre-mature judge of the situation, but i don't think it's a reach to say that Wade,LBJ,etc. are not coming here. And until 2010, and especially if Curry is retained, it looks like it's going to be extremely painful to watch.
  12. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    You don't have to look far to see what this team would be like. Look at the past 3 seasons. That's the Chauncey Billups show. Close is good enough.

    I saw the Bad Boys go to 3 straight NBA Finals, losing one in 7 when the refs screwed us in LA, and and winning the other two by a cumulative 8-1. They had to go through the toughest competition, in the Magic Lakers, the Bird Celtics and the Jordan Bulls. Isiah Thomas was a warrior. The man willed his teams to victories.

    6 straight ECF is nothing to get excited about. The HOF does not reserve space for that. And that 04 Finals MVP trophy should have been Ben's. He meant the most to that team.

    If this was a real team, hell, even if it was a pseudo team like the Blazers, but the Nuggets? You're killing me.

    Hunh? Nothing will be done for another year. Like I said, it's too early to call this trade. Whoopity Doo, Denver fans are excited and Billups is racking up regular season victories. Big deal. This trade will take years to shake out. Your assumption that the Nuggets are on a permanently upward trajectory and the Pistons on a permanently downward one is based on a very small body of observation.

    I wish I could predict the future. Alas, I cannot. Who knows what will happen next with absolute certainty? Not you or not I.

    Instead of worrying about the next ten games, or the playoffs, or the offseason, or the next season, maybe just take it in, and enjoy it? Losses are no fun, but you seem to have already resigned yourself to the fact that this team is irreparably damaged, and the next 2+ years are a write off.

    Gee, that sure doesn't sound like much fun. If I knew that for sure, I would stop watching and posting. But sports and life doesn't work like that. We don't know what is going to happen in our own lives in an hour, let alone the lives of others years from now.

    The fun in sports is the uncertainty, as Prof's signature reads, those things which are excellent are rare. If excellence was common, it wouldn't be worth having. Sorta like why we applaud Olympic swimmers, but not people who can drink a glass of water real fast.
  13. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    Flip Saunders ?

    I don't see what's not to be optimistic about. They have Melo, CB, a young big Nene, and a SG with major potential in Smith. The only real hindrance is GK's style which they don't always play to begin with.

    Irreparably damaged? No. Done as title contenders for the next few years? Yes. Joe D's moves don't inspire optimism. It doesn't mean i can't enjoy the young players or that even the team in the next few years, but my expectations are low.
  14. max

    max All-Star

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    If Sheed was traded for a 2nd round pick just so the owner could avoid lux tax ( like they did with Camby ) we would never hear the end of it.

    With that aside Denver fans have a lot to get excited about. This is all new for them - have they ever been a top 3 seed before?

    When they drafted Mello they actually had one of the worst records in the league.
  15. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    George Karl is no improvement on Flip Saunders. And the only person who knew Saunders' playbook was Billups.

    CB is on the downside of his career, Melo is overrated, and Nene is injury prone. Add in Smith, who is a basket case and you have...

    The Nuggets.

    6 months before last season, the Celtics also looked like they were no closer to the playoffs than the previous 3 years. Cap space, or the ability to make big trades, can turn around a team fast.

    Yes, Curry is a goof. But so was Doc Rivers before he had KG.
  16. monrams99

    monrams99 First Round Draft Pick

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    Well Billups makes hes teammates better.. Ai is an egomaniac gangster wannabee who thinks only of he's stats.. Look at the record of the nuggets b4 and after trading AI with hes gangster, streetball style...
  17. Jewelz0376

    Jewelz0376 First Round Draft Pick

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    :rolleyes:

    Your right!!...AI has made millions and millions of dollars in this league and he's still jacking up 30 shots a night in Det because he "thinks only of he's stats".....He's already a first ballot hall of famer but it's obvious he still only cares about stats...Maybe if AI wasn't shooting the ball 30 times there would be some shots left for kb and amir...what a selfish bum!!!
  18. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Also, Curry reportedly memorized it.
  19. OLD SKOOL HQ

    OLD SKOOL HQ All-Star

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    I didnt read one post in this entire thread, but if anyone THINKS ISNT AMONG THE TOP 3 WORST TRADES (cap space availability not withstanding) iN piston history, not only are you NOT a BASKETBALL fan , u are definetly NOT a PISTON fan!

    Free the BANS, roscoe!! Free the BANS!!!!
  20. professor

    professor Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    :ban:

    or maybe

    :banplease

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