Discussion in 'December 2012' started by roscoe36, Oct 29, 2012.
Bill's gearing up for a quadruple-peat.
Here are the prized rookies that we had that went on to have success after the Pistons: Just for an easy measure, I'm counting games started for subsequent teams.
Okur- 418 starts after DET (He left through FA as we couldn't pay him enough under the cap)
Afflalo- 229 starts (traded AA and Sharpie for a future 2nd rounder that turned into Vernon Macklin. Macklin averaged 15 and 14 in the D-League before expiring)
Darko- 205 starts (turned into Rodney!)
Delfino- 160 starts (traded for 2 2nd round draft picks that turned into Jonas Jerebko and Terrico White(?))
Amir- 102 starts (traded for Fabricio Oberto who was immediately bought out. Cap savings led to the summer of Ben Gordon, Charlie V)
These are basically the guys that were getting chants for more playing time from parts of the fan base. Delfino and Amir have sort of been borderline 6th men since they left with some stretches as starters and then as key bench players. Okur was a financial casualty as I understand it, but he was not prioritized in the planning department.
Smush- 163 starts (he wasn't really a rookie when we had him though). Kobe hates his guts and still talks about him, so the kid must have been a high class individual.
Biggest Disappointment: the Detroit Pistons' Summer of 2009 - Detroit Bad Boys
Ah, the summer of '09.
I side with Smush over Kobe. Smush's version of the story sounds way more believeable.
The NJ announcers get some love from Lowe.
The article also contains some Monroe-Drummond.
Tim Duncan-Tiago Splitter, Greg Monroe-Andre Drummond, and more NBA frontcourt odd couples - Grantland
Glad they did the math. We rebound at a higher rate than any other NBA team on offense and on defense when Greg and Andre are in together? Stat of the year so far.
Monroe is spastically competitive. Playing next to Drummond will unleash his Forest Gump on the defensive glass. That would be half the battle to being a decent defensive player.
Bubba gump rebounds
I like Okur and Afflalo. Even still, I don't think you could say that any of these guys has really made an impact on the league. In fact, I don't think there is a decent argument for these guys over any of our current Pistons starters.
A consistent argument against the clueless coach has been playing starters when a better replacement was available right there on the bench.
Assuming similar salaries, who would you rather have: Okur when he played for the Jazz, or Greg Monroe? Darko or Drummond? Delfino or Prince? Amir or Prince? Smush Parker or Rodney Stuckey?
Which team do you think would be better: Drummond, Monroe, Prince, Stuckey, and Knight with Max off the bench, or Okur, Amir, Delfino, Afflalo and Parker with Darko off the bench?
Best of seven series.
I don't think the argument is that they should have all been starters on our team at once. It was usually that they should have received consistent playing time off the bench instead of sporadic minutes. A lot of these guys were pretty disgruntled when they left. We had a serious reputation for overplaying veterans and not allowing young players to have breakout opportunities.
Just look at the 2006 Pistons for an example of what the problem was:
Player: Mpg ave
Amir: only appeared in 3 games
JMax: appeared in 26 games and averaged 6 minutes in those
Darko: appeared in 25 games and averaged 6 minutes
We basically played a 7 man rotation that year with the big 6 above and then Delk, Mo Evans, Arroyo, and Hunter getting minor minutes on a consistent basis.
Of course, in the Playoffs, it got much worse. Our top guys all had their minute pumped up to 40 per game until they flamed out. Delfino only appeared in less than half the games and for low minutes.
The season after that featured Amir in 8 games only and for very low minutes. Of course, Nazr was the big signing that year and actually started in 33 games. The starters minutes were increased to 36ish.
The next season was the Flip Murray, Jarvis Hayes, Juan Dixon show with Rodney Stuckey preparing to the heir apparent.
I never minded that we kept our core, I just wanted to see a model much more like the Spurs where they used the regular season to figure out what they have and pace themselves.
The Spurs have been a three headed monster, Parker, Duncan and Ginobili for almost 10 years now. It's not like they have really developed anyone else of note. (George Hill?)
I don't buy the "more playing time" equals "better player" argument.
I think Darko has had plenty of time and opportunity to prove he is basically a bust. I think Okur had one or two decent seasons in Utah, but would have been an albatross contract if we had tried to keep him.
I think Afflalo is a good player on a good team but a mediocre player on a bad team. Amir, LOLZ.
That's not to say I am in love with all of the guys we have now. But this idea that guys need time to develop in the league? I don't think it's as applicable to the 13th man as it is to the starting players. Great players with talent and upside almost always get minutes because they add value NOW.
Quality starters are rare. Quality bench players are somewhat common.
I think we as fans tend to have a bias which favors guys we haven't seen play much and to become too familiar with the guys who play regularly. Familiarity breeds contempt.
That's a fair point Roscoe. This is my maiden voyage with Drummond on the SS - The Stupid Coach Won't Play This Guy. I don't think he should be included with the Amir Johnson's (He'll probably go for 27 and 18 tonight.) on that list.
Dyess only played 21 minutes per game in '06? That is who should have been knocking x 2 minutes down just like the Pistons now should be playing less bigs to get Drummond, Monroe and Max on the floor.
In retrospect, The Flip Saunders Pistons probably should have rested our main guys more and given up the regular season records. Although, it's not hard to see why those guys played heavy minutes.
The dropoff in talent between the Wallaces + Hamilton and Amir, Jmax, and Darko/Muhommed is pretty dramatic.
As far as Dyess getting 21 minutes a game... I wonder if that is part of what kept him very effective. The Pistons got him cheap because I think the rest of the league thought he was finished.
Speaking of bench players, I always enjoyed watching these guys (notice the single comment):
Afflalo should never have been given up. A casualty of the reload on the fly attempt, no one they brought in significantly outplayed him in the long run. He's got a toughness and competativeness that is what the Pistons (marketing) strives to be.
Delfino may peak as a 6th man on the pistons but played good D and rebounded very well for a wing. Flip only cared about shooters.
Everyone needs minutes to develop. Some get their minutes because they are good. Others get minutes because the team is bad...or hurt. Not everyone develops with minutes.
IMO; Delfino's problem has never been talent. He's a heckuva player and when totally healthy, he had some killer stretches for the Raps and Bucks.
'Fino's issue is that he's a delicate flower of a man. The dude spends a lot of games watching from the bench in street clothes with various bumps and bruises. To me, he doesn't know the difference between being "hurt" and being injured.
Afflalo is a top 10 SG in the league. The others are between junk and rotation.
That's a group that includes Wade and Kobe.
I sailed on the ship a few years back with Darko. Everyone got food poisoning at the Potential Buffet, and when the ship pulled into port, the passengers from Orlando got robbed. Things stolen included a first round draft pick and a Kelvin Cato.
We got Stuckey for Darko who made Chauncey expandable, so it all worked out.
I disagree that Spurs didn't grow anybody. Splitter, Leonard and Neal are all regular contributors and they were all brought along with the Spurs within the past two years. Other players that made it in the NBA that went through the Spurs machine are George Hill, Beno Udrih, Fabricio Oberto etc.
None of these names are flashy superstars, but Spurs' drafting position has not been good since they drafted Duncan. I think they did a good job with what they had.
The thing is, we never put all of that expansion to use.
Separate names with a comma.