Cavs being a bit "cavalier"

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by ovee99, Sep 17, 2005.

  1. ovee99

    ovee99 Second Round Draft Pick

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    I saw on NBATV ticker today while watching Game 5 of Sixers/Rockets Conference final in '77 (Blazermania), that Cleveland signed Alan Henderson. It seems that Lebron will have quite a different crew this season. Could be interesting to watch how it unfolds. I bet they beat out Miami. You heard it here first! What do you guys think?
  2. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    I think you could very well be right for two reasons.

    1) Shaq is way overdue for a serious injury. I'm not wishing it on him but I say he goes out for the season with a knee, achilles or some other season ending injury. He's been very lucky.

    2) Too much change. For a team that was so close to getting in the Finals they messed around with the lineup too much. Bringing in Walker and Williams could create a chemical explosion.

    Plus Stan Van Jeremy is a weiner.
  3. rdang

    rdang First Round Draft Pick

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    I think out of all the teams in the East (besides the Pistons) the Cavs have the best chance of beating the Heat. I believe Lebron is the best player in the league right now, by far, and there is no one out there that can stop him if he gets going.

    Maybe there might be an issue with their lack of experience but I'm a firm believer that the power of the fact that Lebron > Wade is enough. People have to be stupid to even think that Wade is better than Lebron.

    Wade may have a better organization who put a better team around him so far but by athleticism/skill and soon-to-be growing leadership, James is the winner. He's stepping up his game every year and is going to be a forced to be reckoned with. Even Shaq went to see his high school games and respects this kid's talent.

    With Hughes/Marshall/Iggy/Jones as their starting five and Gooden/Snow and a healthy Varejao...it's gonna be a lot more penetrating (James/Hughes) and dishing out for threes (Marshall/Jones) all year round.
  4. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    not as far off as you might think

    I'm definitely not saying that Wade is better than Lebron, but the gap is not that large. Wade was amazing prior to Shaq's arrival. In a year where the Heat stunk up the place (Wade's rookie year), Wade was out for half the season...came back to the team...propelled them to the playoffs..and won a first round series. All as a rookie. Neither Lebron or Melo could boast the same accolades.
  5. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Sing it!! Sometimes I feel like the only person who watches every playoff game I can. Dwayne Wade was a franchise player as a rookie, and that was before Shaq.

    They even came up pretty close to beating Indiana considering what a darkhorse team they were. If I recall correct, they lost the series 4-2 but gave Indiana all they couild handle.
  6. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    you asked for it....

    "Wade in the Water...Wade in the Water...."

    :)
  7. rdang

    rdang First Round Draft Pick

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    Its not hard to propel a team when you got a supporting cast like Wade did in the 2004 playoffs. Lamar Odom, Caron Butler and a (then motivated) Rafer Alston was a good backing for him. They beat the New Orlean Hornets...not exactly an amazing feat. Trade places and I think Lebron would have taken the Heat past Indiana in a 4-2 series.

    Before Shaq the media gave him a lot of coverage that was deserved, but towards the 2005 campaign it started getting a little ridiculous. I don't doubt his abilities but the gap IS that big but its hard to see that because of his overachieving accomplishments/overemblished media coverage.

    Watching the two players independently on the court, it amazes me how much Lebron makes the game look so easy overall (watch his footwork as he drives to the basket); as compared to Wade who shows us how quick and explosive he is, making plays that astound us. With Lebron its expected, with Wade its a huge surprise.
  8. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    The New Orleans Hornets consistently made the playoffs before they blew that team up. But, honestly did you see Wade in the playoffs that year? He was amazing. He became the focal point of the offense out of the blue and rose to the occasion.

    By the way...Lebron had Ilgauskus, Boozer and a healthy McInnis. Not bad. And last I checked...New Orleans beat them out for a seed..so they had to be pretty descent. ???

    Again, Lebron is obviously the best thing going in the NBA today. But please don't downplay Wade's accomplishments...so far he is the most successfull player out of that class..and that's even pre-Shaq.
  9. rdang

    rdang First Round Draft Pick

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    There is a reason why the team blew up in the first place. The move to the West shook them up pretty hard and the team implded. New Orleans consistently made the playoffs but in the (then) weak east, its not hard to. They were never a championship caliber team and an upset was not all that astounding. And I did watch Wade in that playoff series and again, I'm not underestimating or understating his abilities, I just don't think he's anywhere near Lebron.

    As for Iggy, Boozer and a healthy McInnis - Boozer was the 2nd leading scorer on that team from what I remember and he jumped ship. McInnis in my opinion has always been overrated and his Vince Carter-esque way of leaving the Cavs has tainted and labelled him forever a baby in my opinion. From the year Lebron joined the Cavs, management still had a problem filling in the needs of good three point shooters and good defensive players (until this year). Quite frankly, I'd choose Lamar Odom over Boozer AND McInnis in a package. Lebron makes other players better, Wade doesn't.

    You fill complementary players around Lebron so he can use them as tools (Marshall, Jones for threes, Hughes as a quicker smaller mirror of himself and Iggy as their much needed big man center). Wade? To make the Heat better they added Shaq, James Posey, Jason Williams, and Antoine Walker. Every year they substantally just added a new superstar to their team, while the Cavs actually molded a machine together. Hence, my belief that the Cavs will beat the Heat due to the right chemestry by itself.

    I know you're not understating Lebron's talents, and I'm not understating Wade's. I'm just saying that Wade's had a lot more given to him which makes his accomplishments seem more amazing than Lebron's right now, making everyone believe that they're more closer skilled than they actually are. That's like when people were saying Carmelo was better than Lebron first year because he took Denver to the playoffs (neglecting the rest of the team).
  10. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    I disagree. They imploded because they underestimated the ability of their coach that they fired for no apparent reason. Then they hired a proven loser only to then again hire a coach who has eventually shown to be a lame duck. They also built the organization around players that could not stay healthy. Davis and Mashburn.

    How many championship caliber teams are there ever really in the league? New Orleans still made the playoffs. But that is not the point anyway. The point is that the Miami Heat team sucked when Pat Riley gave up coaching and moved to the GM booth. Lamar Odom had Clipper-itis, which has been known to destroy the careers of many. At the middle of the season the Heat were not even in the playoff picture. Caron Butler severely underachived. ....then Wade comes back. Instantly, the team becomes completely different. All of the players begin to gell and work better together. They finish with one of the best records in the second half of the season, make the playoffs, win the first round and take Indiana to 6 games. Wade didn't make his team better???? There's no way just a solo performance would have accomplished that. He needed to work with his team. I'm sure there are a ton of teams that would love for Wade not to make the others on his team better like he did for Miami. Plus he has done it on the big stage. Hell, Shaq had to admit that Wade was the man during the regular season....to be quite frank...I think Wade actually outperformed Shaq for most of the playoffs.

    We have yet to see how Lebron will perform in the playoffs. (although I'm confident he will) But if he doesn't it wouldn't be the first time we saw the "next Jordan" choke in the postseason.

    What's funny is that I am relatively confident that Lebron will make the playoffs this year based on the talent they have brought to Cleveland this year. I think this year will truely be a breakout season for Mr. James. I can't wait to see how he responds....but in my humble opinion Wade has accomplished a lot in a short period of time. Hell, KG took a helluva alot longer to get where Wade has gone in just 2 years. And Wade has done it as one of the leaders of his team.
  11. rdang

    rdang First Round Draft Pick

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    Sorry Mo but your point just proves the latter. With Wade coming back and making his team so much better, its just a form of chemestry that needed to be added for the team to successfully achieve at their full potential. Did Wade make his team better? Yes he did, in different ways though. He put the pressure on the other teammates to keep up with his pace of game and to make the shots like he made them.

    And you know what? They responded.

    That's the talent that the Heat had and they threw it all away in a trade for Big Shaq daddy (which was a good trade but some can also argue it being a bad one as well). The Clipper-itis certainly disappeared in Lamar Odom, Caron Butler played to his real potential because the team had good team chemestry and momentum on their side. Yes it was caused by Wade's addition, yes he sparked this, but in the end the team responded not because of just Wade's presense on the court, but because each and every individual player on that team had the composure to step up their game.

    Point? Lebron had everyone staring at him in awe. Proof? His highest point game vs the struggling Toronto when they were fighting for a spot in the playoffs.

    I hate using one game as an example because you can't justify a whole season around it but it really closely resembled the problems Lebron had all year round. I believe this game was the backbreaker of the season for James. His noticable frustration in his teammates and rage led him to score 56 points in one game and they still lost! His teammates didn't step up their games when he did and they lost that game. Guys like McInnis began arguing with management, Paul Silas was fired, the new owner Danny Ferry had the whole team shaken up.

    Put Dwayne Wade around guys of that character and I doubt they would have responded the same way the '03-'04 Heat did. The talent simply wasn't there for Lebron to make his impact and its like what I'm learning right now in university for Sociology. Its about life chances, and Lebron hasn't received them. Wade has and its overshadowing Lebron's skill in some people's eyes. People remember winners and that's a sad fact because so many good players are forgotten because of it.

    Why isn't Wade anywhere near as good as Lebron? Throw Wade in an environment like that and I smell underachieving. Its as if Lebron got the complete opposite situation as Darko, he got all the playing time in the world but the players around him just aren't good enough to help. Danny Ferry realized that he's got a potential MJ-esque leader and superstar in Lebron, hence the acquisitions this year to help the support line. That is confidence in skill and ability.

    What did Pat Riley do when he saw a superstar and leader in Dwayne Wade? He rebuilt the team and traded for Shaq, another superstar and leader. Not exactly a good vote of confidence in his abilities, in my opinion.

    But again, I'm not understating Wade at all. But if I were to rate Lebron and Wade in NBA Live 2006: Lebron would get a 95 overall and Wade would be a 83.

    Thats the amount of difference I see in them.
  12. webz

    webz All-Star Administrator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    You mean almost the same supporting cast that failed to take Kobe to the playoffs last year? (Substituting Atkins for Alston)
  13. rdang

    rdang First Round Draft Pick

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    Yeah but no one here's calling Kobe a leader like Wade or Lebron.
  14. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    rdang

    I would probably choose Lebron over Wade if I were building a franchise, but both are tremendous players, and I disagree with you that there is a large gap between them or that anyone would be stupid to believe Wade is better.
  15. Winless Wonders

    Winless Wonders Starter Forum Donor

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    I agree. Wade is not better. Shaq makes Wade better. Lebron is the total package. Just look at his stats. The guy averages 25 a game and on top of that averages like 7 or 8 assists a game and 7 boards. Just look how much he has helped the Cavs improve in just 2 years.
  16. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    I don't think DarthTater was just saying that. He actually said that he doesn't think the gap is as big as rdang describes.

    So since his teammates responded, Wade isn't as good?

    I disagree.

    Here is a better question.

    If Wade played for the Cavs and Lebron played with the Heat...

    Cavs make the playoffs and Heat don't, do you say that Lebron is better by a mile? I think you would.

    Cavs don't make the playoffs and Heat do, do you say that Lebron is better by a mile? I think you would.

    I don't think that there is anything Wade could do that would change your mind.

    I think the fact that Wade went to the playoffs as a rookie with a supporting cast that a more experienced Kobe Bryant was not able to speaks volumes of his abilities.

    Lebron is the better player, but again I don't think the gap is as large as you and the rest of the media would like to say it is. Keep this in mind...Wade's recognition came as a result of his performance during the regular and postseason as a rookie not based on prehype. He earned his praise argueably more than Melo and Lebron because he wasn't even on the radar. Now he is clearly the #2 talent coming out of that draft in my opinion. Only time will tell....
  17. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    curious..

    Rdang, how do you rank Lebron's defense today? or what would you give him for defense on NBA Live 06?

    The reason why I ask is because most of Lebron's praises have come from an offensive viewpoint. We used to hear the same thing as it pertained to Tracy McGrady. Last year was the first year I actually saw McGrady buckle down and play some D in the playoffs. Lebron is definitely a multi-dimensional player (assists,rebounds and overall basketball intelligence) He has a natural feel for the game and a maturity beyond his years.

    One of the things that suprised me the most about Wade was his defensive ability. I couldn't believe the shots this guy was blocking during the playoffs. He has deceptive leaping ability and pretty good postiton defense.
  18. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    http://tinyurl.com/9pn3q

    Keep in mind, Wade is his team's second option many nights. James has no one with star power to demand the ball on his team.

    And if you use 48 minute stats to equalize the #s,

    http://tinyurl.com/9rh9o

    LBJ is really not outputting that much more PPG.
  19. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    lol.

    Man, Lebron has some sick stats! But you make a valid point, he doesn't have to defer to Shaq. I think what is really impressive though is Lebron's field goal pct. given the league pretty much knows that he needs to be stopped to stop the Cavs.

    Both are truely amazing players...stat wise and on the court.

    Really, only time will be the telling factor.
  20. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I tried to do a playoff stat comparison, but Wade blew away LBJ. :loco:

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