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Cavs being a bit "cavalier"

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by ovee99, Sep 17, 2005.

  1. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    lol. I wonder why??????????????. hmmmmmm.:laugh:
     
  2. rdang

    rdang First Round Draft Pick

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    I think Lebron is a very good defensive player. He was among the leaders in steals per game (ranked #3) last year, ranked 2nd in steals overall and 12th in steals per 48 minutes. Probably the most important stat (if you're gonna start using them) is his efficiency rating where he seems to beat Wade from 28.24 to 23.17.

    This using the formula:
    Efficiency Formula: ((PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK) - ((FGA - FGM) + (FTA - FTM) + TO)) / G

    But forget those facts...I remember watching his games. He's a freak of nature. He'd be on the sideline and read the offense, intercepting a pass near the three point. Wade is a great defensive player as well but he's not going to get any defensive player of the year considerations like Lebron is (and has received).

    I give people their due. Wade is a terrific player but I put him in the same lines as guys like Steve Francis, or even Tracey McGrady. Its all hypothetical, we can't prove it but we can only have our points of views. Lebron will continue to grow and be better, the sky's the limit for him. Wade? He's already surpassed expectation, how do you know he won't hit his sophmore wall?

    How about your rating of Wade and Lebron? How far apart would you put them? 95 and 94? If thats so then I'm oblivious to how that could possibly be. On athleticism alone, Lebron beats Wade.

    This is the same Kobe Bryant that everyone calls the loner. Have you ever seen his "Beyond the Glory" video? The guy is no where near a good of a leader as Lebron or Wade. He was called the next Jordan of his time, but he failed because of his lack of leadership.

    That's what MJ had, he was able to get into everyone's head and get them to play their best. I remember reading an article where MJ would have to hold Rodman with both hands on his cheeks and talk to him like a child. Can you picture Kobe doing that?

    I don't question Wade's abilities as a leader, but to be honest everyone seems to overshadow the Shaq factor as well in the lockerroom last year. He called the shots, while Wade outplayed him. But you can't really compare apples and oranges now.

    Wade was drafted fifth overall. That's a pretty high pick if you ask me. He was overshadowed by the big four before, sure, but if you're top 5 in my opinion: you're expected (by the media) to make an impact. The difference between you and I is, I got a feeling I hear more about Wade in the media than you probably do. His name is popping up more and more and people (here at least) are starting to talk about how great he is and how close he is to Lebron.

    Wade's rookie season is what everyone is raving about the most, I think. But everyone here seems to forget: Who got rookie of the year that year?

    That's right, Lebron.

    He received 508 points, 78 first-place votes out of a possible 118. That's a landslide to me. If they were any where near remotely closer, then it would've been a little less one sided.

    More jaw dropping stats?

    Won all six Rookie of the Month awards for the Eastern Conference to join Carmello Anthony, San Antonio Spurs greats David Robinson (1989-90) and Tim Duncan (1997-98) as the only rookies in NBA history to receive Rookie of the Month honors every month of their inaugural season.

    Finally, Lebron may not have to defer to Shaq, but you're treating it like it's such a bad thing to have a giant elephant down low. And besides, 83's a pretty good ranking if you ask me :wink:

    One more thing: Micro. I don't like those 48 minute stats. When the players, so closely play the same amount of minutes and amount of games. Its not a question of 'what would happen if they played the same amount' whereas it's 'who's more durable and willing to play through pain.' (Both get thumbs up for that)
     
  3. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    rdang, my brother from the Great White North, I started skimming at

    That's pretty far out in left field man.

    In 6 years Steve Franchise has been to the playoffs once and never won a series.

    In 8 years T-Mac has been to the playoffs 5 times and never won a series.

    In 2 years, Wade has been to the playoffs both times, and won 3 series.

    I'm not a video game afficionado and I suppose it is a sign of our times that we rank players based on an overall rating out of 100. But based on your scores, Rip Hamilton is likely a 75, and he's had a better career than the 3 players mentioned above.

    Winning is what matters. It's the trump card over awards, selections, or stats. Wade has proved he has leadership and the intangibles to raise his game in the playoffs. If he was healthy, there is a good chance the Pistons would not have played San Antonio last year.

    Lebron might be an NBA great one day, but he hasn't done anything amazing yet. Not for those of us who watched MJ come into his prime, or Bird battle Magic. Or Zeke will his team to victory on bad legs.

    Wade taking the shots to play in Game 7 was the first step in what I expect will be an impressive legacy. Kid got game. Mad game.
     
  4. rdang

    rdang First Round Draft Pick

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    Yes but in this discussion we're talking about how much of a better player one is over another. Wade's done and accomplished more in the postseason, there's absolutely no way of arguing there but you can't just put a team of 12's success on 1 man.
     
  5. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    That's not fair. You want to talk about MJ's leadership and Kobe's lack thereof as key components in the competitiveness and success of their squads, and then turn around and remove that from this discussion because it favors DW.

    One guy has been a winner, and one guy has not won yet. One is a catalyst for the success of his team, the other still not mature enough to make the players around him better. One makes the highlight reels, the other makes the playoffs.

    You decide, but I know where my vote goes. Wade, Wade, Wade until Lebron does more than sell Sprite.
     
  6. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    The infinite Lebron/Wade debate....:)

    I think this is the most important point of the discussion. Stats, stats a more stats I don't think really measure the greatness of a player. Ultimately that is measured by victories. We saw Kobe have a stat padding season and the results were not flattering. Hell, Antoine Walker can put up astounding numbers too in the right situation. Wade has shown that he can win and perform on the most grueling/competitive battle field the world has to offer for basketball, the NBA Playoffs. Wade turned Tayshaun into chop suey that series. He has shown a grit and determination and success that the likes of McGrady and Francis still haven't reached. On Shaq's on accord you are looking at potential greatness with Wade.

    Lebron has the most potential in the NBA to take the Magic, Bird, Jordan mantel. But, he hasn't had the opportunity yet.

    Advantage Wade... for now.

    Oh and my NBA Live ratings would be Lebron 90, Wade 86.

    I disagree with you on the defensive front as I have never seen Lebron shut any All-Star down before. I don't think that having a ton of steals necessarily makes one a great defender. Was Stockton a great defender?

    Again, I guess we will see this year when Lebron has the talent around him. I would love to see what the kid does in the playoffs where the intensity is raised up 10 notches.
     
  7. rdang

    rdang First Round Draft Pick

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    But that's just the notion I'm trying to say though. Lebron's had some kind of medicore talent around him and he's made them a lot better. Boozer's fat contract is an example of it, what did he do last year? Nothing. What did he do when he was with Lebron? Became a center of attention and a 2nd option.

    And I hate using stats to prove anything but I didn't bring it up first; you guys talk about winning games cause you can and I talk about winning awards cause I can. There's arguments on both sides for who's the better player.

    While I say that Lebron couldn't have won games in the past because of the talent around him, you claim its because of him, and his character, that he underachieved and didn't make the playoffs. You may not directly say it but by saying Wade is better because of that; it completely throws away the first reason this discussion started in the first place. That Lebron is a better player skill-wise by a larger margin.

    What would be the best scenario to prove the difference in skill? That's up to all the critics like you and I, who watch the game and say that Lebron is better. That's bar-none not disputed. How do you tell the difference is that big? When the argument for another player being better is that he wins and not by the way he plays.

    And no matter what you say, steals does prove good defense. Saying it doesn't is like saying Ben's big blocks don't make a difference. Ron Artest, Bruce Bowen, Ben Wallace, they're all astounding defenders because when they want that ball they get it. I think on the defensive side, Lebron is as good as Bryant is, maybe even better. And it racks up on the score sheet. Lebron hasn't 'shut down' any stars? He's given a lot of them hard times and he's had very hard match-ups (most likely the best). Plus being a focal point of the offense is also a disadvantage because everyone pays attention to what you do, while Wade's had the luxury of Shaq.

    At the same time, how many stars do you see Wade shutting down? These guys aren't defensive specialist like Bowen. They can score too because they're all around amazing players.

    If you wanna bring up the idea of leadership? The only way we can really compare that is not through winning of games, but by character. In times when a team is down and needs to be picked up, I've seen both men step up, equally. Maybe it was unfair for me to say that he wouldn't be able to make the Cavs successful neither because we would never know, but no one can denounce the fact that he's had a (proven) good team when he's needed it, revolved around him his whole NBA career. I really can't say that about Lebron because he hasn't been given that chance (which we've agreed on and have to wait to see).

    Winning games is important, yes. Stats don't mean anything because you can pat them, yes. But when you're arguing a difference of 6 points between two different points of views out of a rating of 100, you're missing the point. I think Wade's 10% less better than Lebron on skill alone. Leadership the same, if not Lebron being better because as much as Wade's proven that he has leadership qualities, he'll never have the opportunity to really prove it was him 100% with Shaq on his team now.

    What happens if Shaq retires and the team does significantly worse? Do you tie that to Wade's leadership or just chemestry issues? The NBA world is tied with 'what ifs' because these stories of these superstars are what we love to hear/see. What if Jordan never had Pippen? What if Jordan never won a ring because of that reason? Would he still not be glorified as the greatest player of all times cause he never won?

    That's what's too bad for guys like Karl Malone, Dan Marino, Charles Barkley (or even in the future guys like Peyton Manning)...they were all amazing players but they never won the big one so they're overshadowed and forgotten, and the truth is most of the time its not all their fault. All they have are their amazing stats to tie to their amazing careers. Their teammates miss big shots...people get injured...coaches call the wrong plays.

    Wade's never won the big one neither, so why does making the playoffs make any much more of a difference than winning the big one? If you're not first place, you're just the 2nd loser. All these guys are leaders, there's no mistaking that. But saying one person is better than the other because they never made it is just hindsight for the real truth. This is entertainment, and when I watch Lebron...its definately more of a treat then watching Wade.
     
  8. max

    max All-Star

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    Cleveland

    You never know. There is always a surprise team.

    Nothing really sticks out there exept for James. They have improved adding Marshall, Henderson, Snow and Jones. Plus drafted a huge foreign Center.

    Talk about misfits or guys with chips on their shoulders as in one thread about the Pistons. The Cavs will have that.
     
  9. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I am repeatedly drawn to respond although you have meandered in a lot of different directions.

    Where to start...

    Actually, Boozer lead Utah in PPG. He raised his per game scoring by almost 2 points per game on a squad that traded it's starting point and lost it's MVP SF to injury. You call that nothing?

    Actually, this is how you started
    I don't see any mention of "skill-wise" except here...

    The conclusion you are promoting is that Wade is only good because he is on the Heat, not because he has any skills, athleticism or leadership to matchup with Lebron. That's horse manure. Wade has ACCOMPLISHED more than Lebron with less.

    That 2004 heat squad had zero leaders and a bunch of whiny, lazy players. Wade galvanized them by throwing himself into defenses to draw fouls and show heart.

    Lebron had an All-Star center last year, and he couldn't make the big show...

    Lastly, I look up the per 48 production and find it is darn close, then you resort to PER? Man, it's grasping at straws....

    Right now, Dwayne Wade is the better player. He's smart, he's complete, he's relentless, he has shown TREMENDOUS leadership and he wins. If anything, Wade makes Shaq better rather than the other way around.

    I know you are adamant in your belief that Lebron is the next Basketball Messiah. Maybe he will be. Or maybe he will be like KG and rack up those stats and awards but never be considered a winner.
     
  10. max

    max All-Star

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    Wade vs Lebran

    Wade is more polished but he is also 2 years older and had some college experience. Wade could not have came straight out of high school and survived being thrown to the Wolves like Lebran did.

    Give it a couple more years and James will be the NBA's most dominate player. Right now he is not even of legal drinking age.
     
  11. rdang

    rdang First Round Draft Pick

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    Well Micro...there's no one else here that really says Wade is a better player than Lebron, they're just stating that Wade has accomplished more and isn't as far off in his ability as I stated earlier.

    But again, in almost every one of my post I keep saying:

    *shrug* I'm moving on from that topic now. There's nothing that can really change my mind about Wade now because I've seen the kid do almost everything but win the big one. In my mind, he is and always will be a great player BUT - well, you know what I'm leaning towards. I won't say it again.

    As for Boozer - being the focus of the offense and only raising your points per game up 2? Losing your defensive side with the ever slight slide in rebounds, blocks and steals? The increase in turnovers? Not a successful switch in my opinion. Blah I hate talking about stats though. Boozer was the talk of the free agency town when he was out there, now he's a dudd.

    And I still think the 2003-2004 Heat roster was filled with talented guys, they just needed the right guy to set them off. You agree with this - then you state that Lebron had that one big Iggy all-star center?

    Sorry I'd rather take the whole 2003-2004 Heat roster over Iggy by himself.
     
  12. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Ot was a good debate while it lasted it. No hard feelings.
     
  13. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    well...

    I guess this is going to be one of those classic agree to disagree discussions. :)

    Just to summarize my position:
    1. It is hard for me to say that Lebron is head and shoulders above Wade when while both were surrounded by inconsistent talent (every player to surround those players with the exception of Illgauskas has followed up with an inferior performance the following season), Wade was the only one of the rookies who can boast that he successfully brought his team to the playoffs, won a playoff series, and took the team with the best regular season record at the time to 6 games.
    2. Playoffs! Playoffs! Playoffs! The playoffs in my opinion are the official yardstick for grading excellence as the stakes are higher, the intensity of the teams are elevated, and weaknesses in a budding all-star's games are exposed. If I had a dollar for everytime the world was high on a player just to tear his game apart after a playoff series, I'd be a rich man.
    3. Both players have had remarkable seasons. Wade and James are statistically very close. On defense, James steals jumps out in front of you..but Wade's blocks jump out in front of you as well. I still say that defensive categories don't always tell the story. Bruce Bowen's stats don't jump at you...and Ben's stats don't tell the complete story. Having watched Lebron I have not seen him take over defensively to control a game yet...like an MJ used to do for instance. I have seen Wade however take control of a game defensively in the playoffs... Just my observation.
    4. Greatness, in my opinion, is when talent and hard work come together consistently to breed success when the opportunity presents itself. By that definition, Lebron is short opportunity.
    5. I still concede that James is more athletically gifted than Wade. His potential is astronomical. But based on Wade's accomplishments thus far...Wade is already on the path to greatness....and Lebron still has ALOT to prove. (regardless of what the NBA hype machine has reported) If Lebron, does not make/have success in the playoffs that makes HIM more like a Francis, McGrady in my opinion.
    By the way, its important to mention that I've enjoyed this exchange with you. You do an excellent job of building your case although in the end I still disagree with your conclusions.
     
  14. rdang

    rdang First Round Draft Pick

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    Hey I never take anything personally :wink:

    Definately a good debate and good arguments on both sides for sure.
     
  15. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    Funny little discussion y'all have going on here. But I have to say this.......Trade Wade for James str8 up and you get similiar results with both franchises. As rookies I think LeBron would have taken that Miami team just as far as Wade did, no matter what Mia was not beating Indy. I do think that Lebron on last years Mia team, walks home with a ring. No way to prove it's all just opinion.

    Best part of all this is that we are fortunate to watch 2 young, gifted, humble players, that respect the game, and carry themselves well on and off the court develop and compete for the next few years. Add Amare and Dwight Howard to that mix and the NBA is A-OK 2Me.
     
  16. rdang

    rdang First Round Draft Pick

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    Amare is a bit of a pompeous-egotistical ass from what I hear.

    But so am I sometimes ;)
     
  17. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    i have absolutely nothing to contribute to this discussion except that there's no A in definitely, and when say most <format of dominate>, you use dominant, not dominate.

    har!! sorry it's friday i couldn't think of anything else except to be an ass :D
     
  18. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Queens English. Cut a brother some slack. ;)
     
  19. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    sorry my sis teaches english and it wears off :D

    on-topic, i think lebron is better than wade...or something.
     
  20. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    You'll get along great with jdmiser and detteam. They are the English language "elite". :D
     

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