Charley Rosen's take on Darko Milicic

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Zoso, Sep 26, 2005.

  1. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    Thank you for the definition of "benefit of the doubt" Dave. I've never come across that term in my past travels, and I will always think of you and be grateful for the insight you have offered myself and others the next time I come across it.

    Did you read the entire thread? It seems you took what I said out of context. I thought I was pretty clear when I placed the word KNOW in bold. But I'll go over it again.

    Of course we are all entitled to our opinions. And I personally respect you for believing Darko will be very good , as well as I respect the next person who believes he will be a bust. The reason is that we don't have enough evidence to KNOW either way. You said it yourself....it is your GUT that tells you he will be good. Now, if someone were to tell me that Lebron James was not NBA caliber, I would say that he was an idiot. We have seen enough evidence to know without a doubt that Lebron is a fantastic NBA level player. We KNOW Lebron is an NBA star.

    So I am saying that I can understand how a person can think Darko will be good or bad. That is certainly arguable. But nobody can tell me that they KNOW this to be an undisputable truth. You may be absolutely correct in your analysis of the facts available at this time. You also may be totally wrong. When people act like other people are idiots or blind for not seeing Darko is a bust or the next NBA superstar, I think they are the very people who need to look at things more objectively. They are usually the same ones who insist they have a right to their opinion ,but at the same time act as if others are mentally challenged for not sharing it.

    I think some of you people should try to get jobs as NBA scouts because the NBA scouts who pick players based on watching their college or high school or European games tend to make a lot of mistakes. That tells me it either isn't an exact science or NBA franchises have hired a lot of the wrong scouts over the years. While the latter may be somewhat true, I believe the former is the reason the scouts miss so often.
  2. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    Motown

    I agree 100 percent with your last post. That's how I feel too.
  3. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    funny...lol...but true.
  4. DaviaG-Rap

    DaviaG-Rap First Round Draft Pick

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    While my gut assures me Darko will be good, I can still judge the evidence for myself and there is plenty that shows Darko has lots of skill and ability. Someone show me the evidence that proves Darko can't play in this league? Someone tell me why Darko can't improve and learn?

    There maybe proof that Darko is young and inexperienced. Even proof that he has some major weaknesses in his game. As long as Darko can block shots, pass the rock & make his team mates better, as well as continue to show great quickness and ability cover the court- HE HAS A ROLE IN THE NBA.

    Already he has proven to be as good or better than Nenad Krstic, Zelly Rebraca, and Rasho Nesterovic. That may not be great, but its a start, and it's far from being a bust.
  5. DaviaG-Rap

    DaviaG-Rap First Round Draft Pick

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    That is a half truth. While Darko's summer league performance wasn't very promising, it wasn't discouraging either. As far as his play against Kaman, Darko did swat him pretty good 3 times in a "Hakeem" like manner. I think what the FIBA cup performance showed is that if you challenge Darko and put him in a tough spot he will respond and produce. He hasn't had that opportunity often in the NBA, but when he has he has done well.
  6. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    I dunno..

    While I am really pulling for Darko, do you really believe that he has already shown he is as good or better than Nenad Krstic, Zelly Rebraca, and Rasho Nesterovic? Are you basing all of this from the Euroleague? Wow.

    Kristic has already proven he can play in the NBA with the Nets. He put together a solid season last year. Zelly, with all of his defensive issues and tendency to draw offensive fouls has still proven his worth at least to the Clippers. And Rasho has played good enough to earn a long-term contract although I think he is severly overrated and stealing money. But more importantly, all of these players have shown that they can survive in the league. Don't you think its a bit premature to say Darko is better or as good as all of them?

    He really hasn't done anything yet. Sorry.
  7. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    To Darko's #1 fan

    His inability to be effective with that level of NBA players WAS discouraging...who are we kidding? lol. That game where Kaman played against him he torched him for almost 30 points with limited time. The coach pulled him out so many times to yell at him for playing weak D it was ridiculous. We must have been watching completely different games or you are REALLY in love with this guy. I'm confused. Again, I was really impressed with his perfomance in the FIBA cup but man, he stunk it up in the summer league...sorry. Oh, and I think I missed those 3 swats. (I don't doubt you are telling the truth but those must have been the most quiet swats I've ever seen) The whole story of that game was Darko's weak defensive performance/tendacy to settle for the outside shot and Delfino's invisibility. Darko has had some shining moments but that was certainly not one of them. Darko still needs to prove he can perform well against the NBAs strongest competition. I believe he can do it, but he definitely has not earned the right to be treated like the "chosen one" yet. Come on...that's just WAYYYY to premature.
  8. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    Davia

    In your 4:53 post you asked that someone show you evidence that Darko cannot play in this league.

    I believe Motown has just given you his perspective on some events which show you why Darko may not be NBA material, at least for a while. You took the same event and viewed it as absolute proof that Darko IS ready and presented it as irrefutable evidence.

    So it is debatable. Personally, I think Motown's interpretation of those particular events were more accurate than yours. But...that is only my OPINION. My point is that we don't KNOW yet, and both sides or people in the middle can all bring up valid points.

    I don't want Darko to fail. Like Motown, I think he will succeed, but only perhaps , because I want that to happen. I've seen things to show it can go either way...even if the balance weighs more heavily one way we just don't know. Again, that is why I said earlier that I just don't see how people can say they KNOW.

    Unless you know something significant that the rest of us are unaware of, I don't think you will be able to sway anyone if that is your intention. If not, I'm not sure why you are so intent on showing we should KNOW without doubt (based on our gut being the final judge) that he is ready for prime time.

    Feel free to respond if you like, but I am done with this...at least for a while. Nothing more I can say except that I truly hope your gut is correct.

    :closed_2: to Darth
  9. DaviaG-Rap

    DaviaG-Rap First Round Draft Pick

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    I didn't see much of that game, but I don't think you did either. Darko did get outplayed by Kaman, but don't blow it out of proportion. Kaman only scored 18points, took just 2 free throws, commited 6 fouls, and had 3 TO. Plus got swated 3 times, and they were hardly quiet- blocking 2 fadeaway jumpers by a seven footer is pretty impressive. Again Darko blew in that game, but don't make it sound like Kaman dominated him. Besides Kaman is a fine basketball player with a lot more experience than Darko. He has about 3 years of college and 2 years of actual NBA game experience on Darko.

    Darko's SL performance was disappointing from a production standpoint. If you are looking at stats you expect more from him, but if you watch the games, he played good solid team ball, he gave good effort which was a criticism and he showed some skill and shooting ability, which was just a rumor up to that point. He let Acker and Maxiell steal the show in Vegas, but he stole the show in Europe. And again saying that Darko wasn't effective is a half-truth. Could he have done better? Yes, but he wasn't ineffective. You don't need to go to such "extremes" to make a point.
  10. DaviaG-Rap

    DaviaG-Rap First Round Draft Pick

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    I guess Darko hasn't "proven" it yet. That can only come with PT. Darko has had success with Krstic head-to-head before their NBA days and outplayed him plenty in the Tourney. Darko played very well against Rasho when S&M faced Slovenia, and I remember Darko schooling him in one of those Finals blow outs. As for Rebraca a lot of people were pissed he played over Darko. He ended up quiting the team for whatever reason.
  11. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Honestly, I was trying to stay out of this.

    The Finals blow out doesn't count. You can't count GT when he plays well and disregard it if he plays poorly. There has to be some consistency. Either GT matters, or not.

    No disrespect. Just trying to keep it on the up and up.
  12. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    I actually did watch the entire game. And although I admit that I did not go back to review the stats prior to the post I remember what I walked away with. When does 18 points seem like 30 points?...that happens when a player completely dominates another: 18 points, 8 boards and 3 blocks with Darko guarding him most of the time. Kaman wasn't slowed down until they took Darko out of the game. Kaman is decent, but not half as good as Darko made him look that game. Anyone who watched the game would have made the same deduction. So while I admit the 30 points in limited minutes comment was a miscue on my part (I can admit :redface:), the gist of the statement was the same...he looked like he did not belong in the league in that game....and Kaman looked awesome!

    Now can you admit that since you didnt even see much of the game (while I watched that game and all of the summer games) you really can't offer a counter perspective to that performance? ;) Especially since the 3 monster Hakeem blocks against Kaman you stated are not accurate as well. Hell, he only had 2 blocks the entire game and none of them were monsterous.

    In the grand scheme of things it gues it really doesn't matter. All of us want to see the kid succeed. You just seemed to have thought he had already proven his spot in this league. But, now that you have recanted that statement...

    ...I guess we are all on the same page now anxiously waiting for Darko to live up to the expectations of a second overall draft pick.
  13. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    Just think about it, our starters, Dyess', and a second overall draft pick playing his best. I like that.
  14. congoman

    congoman First Round Draft Pick

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    Pride...I was at the game and was impressed with Darko's game against Kamen. He had one stretch where Kamen went at him with those spastic post moves he has and that confused Darko and he didn't cover him well then. But outside of that maybe 6 point, 2 minute outburst Darko played him tough. He was clearly stronger than Kamen who couldn't move Darko off of his spot. Darko did put some remarkable blocks on Kamen and drew oohs and aahs from the non-partisan crowd. Darko was in and out of that game a lot because he was not in game condition. The coach was not chewing him out. He did not score much because he spent most of his time setting picks and passing. He seemed reluctant to shoot. He did make one impressive layup from just inside the foul line that again drew a crowd reaction. That game impressed me because :I was surprised at how strong and agile Darko was.
  15. DaviaG-Rap

    DaviaG-Rap First Round Draft Pick

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    The 3 blocks are very accurate. I watched them with my own eyes, I had the video on my computer. Congoman has my back. Also Kaman averaged 20.2ppg, and 8.6rpg in Vegas so technically Darko kept him below his average. If its your opinion that Darko got dominated, thats fine, but Darko deserves some credit.
  16. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Dave,

    I also have your back if congoman does not mind.
  17. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    ha..ha..

    To hell with ALL of you then! I think you all are nutz! :wacko:

    lol.

    I guess its possible for one person to see the game in a completely different light than someone else. Now you got me wondering if we are talking about the same game. :confused: I watched the game on NBATV and it wasn't half as flattering as Congoman described.

    But I'm not going out like that! :)

    I checked the stats this morning after my 30 point faux pas and it said Darko only registered 2 blocks.

    MINFGM-A3PM-AFTM-AOREBDREBREBASTSTLBLKTOPFPTS263-100-01-3044002167

    Quote from Chris Monjoy ~ HoopsWorld in reference to Chris Kaman:

    "He started out slow, but he came back with a fury. During one game, he ended up with 28 points, and 16 boards, and in another, he dominated the second, overall, draft pick from two years ago. Yep, you guessed it, Darko Milicic."

    Analysis on Darko from Jonathon Givnoy ~ DraftExpress:

    "Darko Milicic- Milicic tried a lot harder in this game, but the results in the first half just weren’t there. He actually started off very well, blocking Kaman as he pulled up for a short jumper in the lane and running the floor very hard to finish off a break, but the rest of the 1st half was not memorable for him. He picked up a bunch of fouls on Chris Kaman, got outrebounded a bit and didn’t really make his presence felt around the basket. His moves around the hoop aren’t bad, it’s just that his jump hook shot wasn’t and never was falling for him here in Vegas. It’s still early in the game for Darko, but things don’t look great for him right now. A nice 18 foot jump shot was one of the few bright spots for him in the 2nd quarter. He had 4 points on 2-5 shooting with 1 rebound in the first half.

    In the 2nd half Darko was absolutely murdered by Chris Kaman in the post. He gave him too much space and let him get too deep before putting a body on him, meaning he either picks up the foul or conceeds the basket. He settled time after time for the 18 footer and it rimmed out for him every single time. When he did get position in the paint he went for the jump hook shot rather than taking the ball right at Kaman to draw the foul and/or finish strong at the hoop.

    Darko had one really sweet move with five minutes left in the fourth quarter that really got a rise out of the crowd. He had the ball at the three point line and made a great spin move towards the basket to finger roll the ball into the basket. These are exactly the type of moves that got him drafted where he did.
    (This was good, I remember this :thumb: )"

    Another blurb from Givnoy:

    "Kaman continued his effective play throughout the 2nd half. He was too much for Darko to handle in the paint and scored on him time after time or went to the line."

    So I'm not nuts. I saw what I saw and now I'm going to take my ball home so no one else can play. :)

    Motown has left the building! :bolt:
  18. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    ~ continued

    Darko stats that got screwed up with post.

    http://www.vegassummerleague.com/box_score.cfm?game=32
  19. KP

    KP First Round Draft Pick

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    Darko v. Kaman

    I have to weigh in on the side of those who were unimpressed by Darko's performance in the summer league games televised by NBA TV.

    It seemed anytime someone would go hard at Darko, he (Darko) would end up falling down or running and hiding 10 feet out of bounds. Yes, he blocked a couple of jumpers, big deal. When the play got physical and aggressive Darko was a wet noodle - it was embarrassing. This is in contrast to a guy like Maxiell who attacked an aggressive offensive move.

    I didn't see any of the Euro games, but I find it difficult to believe that his response to physical play changed much in two months.

    Once we see him in the preseason, we'll all probably agree a little more on where he is at.
  20. LanierFan

    LanierFan Bench Warmer

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    FWIW, I thought the refereeing in the Summer League was atrocious. Lots of ticky-tack or nonexistent fouls, especially on big men.

    What I remember about the Kaman game was that he tried to shoot jumpers over Darko twice and they were blocked with comical ease. (The size difference was as obvious as in Darko's game against Israel.) Then Kaman began using his body to shield Darko while taking hooks with his off-hand, which Chris is really unique at. Some of the other highlights came when Darko was in the position of rotating over to someone else's man and none of the summer league guys could be bothered to help out. Things got really bad after that.

    Which is closer to reality? Got me. That's why this is going to be a very interesting exhibition season.

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