1. Football Picks Survivor is done for 2014. Congrats to billlaimbeer from The Pistons Forum

Clueless Coach or Dumb Dumards

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by KGREG, Nov 1, 2010.

  1. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    17,844
    Likes Received:
    3,254
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicaaago
    What do you think you could accomplish if you went back in time (knowing everything you know now) and got to be GM of the Pistons starting the day after the 2004 Championship?

    7 straight ships?
     
  2. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,526
    Likes Received:
    651
    Location:
    Flint
    While there are ways to go over the cap - like signing your own vet back who has 3 years with your team - you could not go over the cap just because you wanted to. It was against the rules for us to go over the cap to sign Okur. The rules were changed the next year, allowing teams to go over the cap to resign their 2nd round picks - but that was one year to late for us. Okur only had 2 seasons with us at the time.
     
  3. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    Messages:
    16,214
    Likes Received:
    4,166
    Location:
    Michigan

    Thank you.
     
  4. round

    round All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,750
    Likes Received:
    426
    Location:
    Michigan/Glasgow
    There was a guard out west that was lost for the same reason... want to think it was a pretty good player too, can't remember the name for the life of me.
     
  5. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    4,906
    Likes Received:
    869
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Saginaw, Michigan
    Gilbert Arenas
     
  6. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Messages:
    4,974
    Likes Received:
    1,761
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm really suspect that Dumars' hands are tied with the pending sale of the team. Any change to the salary structure would alter the financial makeup of the team and reset negotiations. Typically nothing is changed in a business unit that is in the process of being sold.

    I'm not trying to make excuses for Dumars; I haven't been really happy with the moves he made recently. But, it is what it is.
     
  7. max

    max All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    7,482
    Likes Received:
    494
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    my bunker in the Carribbean
    Yes I agree. There has to be something to it. Something like where he cannot alter the long term salary structure. Trying to match Rip year for year would be hard if that was the case.
     
  8. Mogilny

    Mogilny All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,079
    Likes Received:
    1,323
    Dumars hands being tied might be the only thing stopping him from trading Monroe for a veteran swingman.
     
  9. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Messages:
    4,974
    Likes Received:
    1,761
    Gender:
    Male
    By veteran swingman, you mean Flip Murray right?
     
  10. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    17,844
    Likes Received:
    3,254
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicaaago
    Right, he painted himself in a corner. The reason I listed all those other guys was to show how much money he was wasting on non producing assets.
     
  11. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2005
    Messages:
    6,353
    Likes Received:
    1,285
    Location:
    Georgetown, KY
    Good point. It's easy to give him a pass because his hand was forced, but a better leader may have not let himself get into that situation in the first place. With that said, I still give him a pass on Okur. I believe Dumars sacrificed future cap flexibility in order to acquire Sheed, who was a key component to the championship. In my book, that was a good tradeoff.
     
  12. linwood

    linwood All-Star

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2005
    Messages:
    4,478
    Likes Received:
    1,519
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    I really liked Okur. The first time I saw him play, I knew that Rebracha's days were numbered. Memo has some sweet moves, and a great shot from the top of the arc.

    That being said, Rasheed Wallace played more defense on the games he took off than Memo did in his best games.

    I'm not happy with the Pistons right now, and much of the blame has to be laid on my man Dumars.

    Here's something to consider. If we put all that money into Memo and Sheed, and one of them had a serious injury, would we have made 6 ECFs?

    Zelly looked pretty good until his heart condition...
    Bob Sura was a fan favorite, but his frequent injuries earned him the nickname Bobby Backache...
    Mateen never learned how to shoot...
    Darko is finally starting to show some promise 7 years into his career...

    Maybe Joe rejects the "eggs in one basket" model of team construction.
     
  13. max

    max All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    7,482
    Likes Received:
    494
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    my bunker in the Carribbean
    Okur wanted to start anyway so even if we would have had the cash he was not going to start once Sheed was signed. But I doubt that he would have after the Sheed trade. Sheed had bird rights so in order not to lose it his 17 mil from the previous year was on the books until a deal was worked out - something like that.

    Biggest Dumars mistake in my opinion was throwing away the 2nd pick in the draft. Multi ways to argue this but the bottom line is that we don't have a player to show for it right now - unless you count getting the 15th pick to draft Stucky with but there other ways to move up in the draft.

    2nd biggest was the CB trade. Not so much the trade itself as much as what he used the cap space for.

    Top 2 moves.

    Signing Ben Wallace, they later worked out a sign/trade with Hill but that was after Ben and Hill had agreed to terms on their respective new teams. Dumars saw something in Ben that no one else in the league did.

    2nd best - signing CB.

    Both the bests were a long long time ago. He has drafted well lately though.
     
  14. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,526
    Likes Received:
    651
    Location:
    Flint
    Dumars did lots of good stuff as he built a winner for 2004. However. Hammonds was around, so we really don't know exactly who had what input. Still, assuming it was Joe mostly, here is what he did then:

    Traded Junk Yard Dog, for Corliss Williamson.
    Acquired the rights to Zelly Rebracca, and signed him.
    Signed Cliff Robinson.
    Signed Damon Jones.
    Got Jon Barry for Mateen Cleaves if I recall.


    At this point, we had our 50 win team. Although I beleive that team vastly underachieved both years due to the near insane inclusion of M. Curry in our rotation. This guy could not move any more.

    1st Carlisle year) Atkins, Damon Jones, Stackhouse, Barry, Curry, Corliss, Cliff, Zelly, Ben Wallace

    Then we drafted Prince and Okur, traded Stackhouse away for Hamilton, and signed Billups as a free agent. Stackhouse turned out to have a hip problem that shortened his career as a star in the league, while Rip turned into a clutch shooter by the championship run. Billups was Billups. And Tay starred in a huge comeback in the playoffs vs. Orlando - a team led by TMAC. Zelly began the year starting at center, but had a heart problem that ended his Piston career.

    2nd Carlisle year) Billups, Atkins, Rip, Barry, Curry (still, and even more unbelievably. Still slower than the year before even), Corliss, Cliff, Memo, Ben Wallace. In the playoffs, that changed to Tay instead of Curry. This was one extremely capable roster, and yet, still only 50 games won. Curry was that bad. Both our defense and offense suffered greatly for the 20 minutes he was gifted per game. However, it must be noted (in Carlisle's defense to some extent - but he was the guy who chose to go with Atkins instead of Damon Jones), our post game was a lot worse in Carlisle's 2nd year. One, Zelly was gone, and 2, although we had Corliss, we did not have Damon Jones to complete that magical tri of Barry, Jones, Corliss. the ball was not going into the post nearly as effectively.

    One mistake here was not keeping Damon Jones over Atkins. Neither Jones nor Atkins could stop dribble penetration, but Jones had a lot of talents that Atkins lacked. One, he at least had some height against perimeter shooters. 2) On plays around the basket on D, he had a knack for hopping up and making the opposing player think a taller guy was guarding him, often causing a pass away before the guy realized it was just Jones. 3) Excellent defensive rotation. Especially the knack for holding a double team exactly, to the millisecond it seemed, and then hustling back to his own guy before that guy could take advantage of being left alone. 4) last but no least, him and Barry and Corliss worked extremely well together. The ball would always find its way into Corliss in the post, with Corliss having his defender locked in an inopportune position. One automatic score after another. Best way to explain this magic - Jones and Barry knew how to position themselves, and then exactly when to pass the ball to one another, such that an angle was found to get the ball to Corliss at the right time in the right position.

    And finally, we traded away Cliff and others to get Sheed. Sheed was a post game in and of himself. Anyone could feed this lengthy, strong guy who found himself near the basket with ease with his quickness. And, just as importantly, for the series win vs. the Lakers and Shaq, we picked up Elden Campbell, a guy who knew how to slow down Shaq as well as anyone in the league. We also had a very defensive minded set of backup guards that year in Hunter and Mike James.

    That year: Billups, Hunter, Rip, Mike James, Tay, Darvin Ham (who disappeard out of the playoff rotation but played lots of minutes in the regular season mainly to keep Tay's minutes down), Corliss, Ben Wallace, Sheed, Memo, and Elden Campbell.

    Next year. Not one good move from this point on. We did not keep Mike James, and we traded Corliss away in a cap space move. We lost Memo in the shuffle. We signed Dyess, who replaced a lot of offense, but had no lateral movement on defense. We drafted Darko but did not play him at all. If we had played him at all, even the slightest, he would have been available to guard Duncan - something he showed a knack for immediately after we let him go. That could have been two Ship's in a row. Also, we drafter Delfino, who had a terrible year due to a knee problem which (in my opinion) was mishandled. In any case, we got zilch out of our draft picks for that year. Anything at all would have tipped the scales in that ill fated SA series.

    After that, all down hill. But some people did not mind as it was a slow descent. Still more East finals appearances. This bozo came along claiming to have this huge playbook. If only he could get all the plays implemented. Never happened. The team was led toward softness thru a myriad of zones. The first year was all wrong, with the focus being on how many meaningless regular season wins we could get. Flip's years were all about getting the team worse year after year. No youth development allowed.

    Then you had Curry. Guess what. He started out fine. And Joe torpedoed him big time. After that, Curry lost it, but barely did manage to get us into the playoffs. Which now only seems a pipe dream.
     
  15. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    17,844
    Likes Received:
    3,254
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicaaago
    Elden Campbell's contributions weren't huge IMO. He only averaged 13 minutes per game and Shaq averaged 43 minutes. Campbell didn't even start against the Lakers. This means that Ben Wallace had at least 30 minutes per game on Shaq.

    For $4M in 2004 and $4.5M in 2005, I'd say that we would have been better off without him and with Memo.

    Too much Shaq insurance.

    We paid $13M in 2005 for 3 big men that we never used (Darko, Coleman, and Campbell) and we lost in the Finals by the slimmest of margins.

    In 2005, we basically had a 6 man roster in the playoffs + Lindsey Hunter.

    Total minutes played per game in the 2005 playoffs:

    Rip: 43.2
    Tay: 40.9
    CB: 39.4
    Ben: 39.2
    Sheed: 33.0
    Dyess: 19.7
    Hunter: 15.0
    Arroyo: 6.0
    Cambell: 2.3
    Dupree: 1.5
    Ham: 1.0
    Darko: 50 seconds
    Coleman: waived
    Delfino: left off the playoff roster
    Jenkins: left off the playoff roster
    Smush: left off the playoff roster
    Goldwire: ??? sent to D-league?

    We had the slowest pace in the league that year, had a grueling regular season where Larry Brown overplayed the starters and neglected the bench. Round 1 went 5 games. Round 2 went 6 games. Round 3 went to an exhausting 7 games. And then the Finals went the distance with draining game after draining game.

    Dupree, Ham, Darko, and Delfino were all very capable defenders and could have helped to save the legs of the starters. Our big man rotation in Ben, Sheed, and Dyess got zero backup and they were all 30 years old at that point. Delfino averaged over 15 minutes per game in the regular season for the last 30 games (after coming back from knee surgery) and then got left off the playoff roster so that Prince could average 41mpg...
     
  16. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2006
    Messages:
    12,306
    Likes Received:
    1,504
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lake Elmo
    Looks like Flip wasn't the only one who overplayed his starters.
     
  17. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    17,844
    Likes Received:
    3,254
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicaaago
  18. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2006
    Messages:
    4,262
    Likes Received:
    446
    Location:
    Ann Arbor/Chicago/Walland, TN
    SB nation may want to take a high school level course in sarcasm. I would say that wondering if he was a post player rather than wondering why he shot so many free throws might be a giveaway.
     
  19. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    17,844
    Likes Received:
    3,254
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicaaago
    Well, he's a post player when he plays against a team with a 6'6" center and a 6'5" power forward.
     
  20. Tha Locstah

    Tha Locstah First Round Draft Pick 1x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Messages:
    836
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Beantown via Benton Harbor, MI

Share This Page