Could our back court be lethal?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by lovingj, Jul 6, 2009.

  1. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    Lpgrl,

    Gordon was the best player available in free agency--by far.

    Who in the league can get their shot in the teeth of the playoffs? Le Bron, Wade, Kobe, maybe Pierce, Garnett, nobody on Orlando, Paul (sort of), Yao, Tracy Mac, maybe Carmelo, sometimes Dirk, Durant, when the time comes, maybe Roy. I mean, not that many. Gordon is one of those. He is a number 3 pick that plays like one on the offensive end. These type of players are just not available. Chicago blew it. They had a real piece and didn't understand it. Joe pounces on these type of situations historically.

    I mean look at the Pistons. Rip and Billips and Sheed in their prime could create damage offensively. But none of them now, can get their own shot. Gordon can also work OFF the ball.

    People have in the past gotten excited about Affalo and some of our youth. They are all low draft picks and had limited skill sets as they entered the NBA. You cannot build a top team with low draft picks. It has never been done.
  2. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    It just dawned on me that all six of our starters (Stuckey, Gordon, Rip, Tay, CV, Kwame) are 1st round picks, 15th or higher with the exception of Tay who was 23rd if I remember correctly.
  3. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    Honestly, the Gordon signing doesn't bother me that much. I can see the logic in getting him. I can even see slightly overpaying. My main problem is the combination of players we signed.

    It's not cohesive IMO. We could have went after Gordon and then maybe a strong defensive player.

    Ideally, we could have ended up with one of these

    Stuck
    Gordon
    Prince or Ariza
    Boozer
    Chandler

    I just can't get over taking the last remaining cap space and signing Charlie Villanueva.

    It could still be salvaged somewhat if we end up with

    Stuck
    Gordon
    Prince
    Boozer
    Chandler

    CV off the bench

    Or

    Stuck
    Rip/Gordon
    Prince
    CV
    Chandler

    But right now IMO it's a mess
  4. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    Lpgrl,

    I agree I don't know about Charlie so I don't want to say too much. He does have skills but whether he turns out or not, I wouldn't know and he doesn't solve the problem of weakness with the bigs.

    I agree that if Joe does not make any more moves, the team is not ready to compete at a sufficient level. But I anticipate a center or someone like Boozer coming in. Then, yes, things will look better.

    I love Rip but I really think he should be traded in this context.
  5. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    I think Rip and Gordon tiring their man out by running them around countless screens followed by a Rodney Stuckey shoulder to the gut on one of his drives could be a lethal combination to the right player.
  6. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    Walter, there is always a lot of talk in the draft, but really, if you are not drafting top ten or top five, you are not getting a foundation for your team and most of that talk is hot air or amusement.

    Joe brought in Rip (7th), Billips (3rd) and Sheed (3rd) for that 2004 ship. The Pistons didnt' draft the guys, true, but their talent level was such that an NBA team did. And they played as very skilled players, didn't they?

    I could never get too wrapped up on our youth these last few years. How were a string of low picks suppose to replace those guys? Realistically?

    Now Joe has just brought in a 3rd pick (Gordon) and 7th pick (Charlie). If the Pistons got really bad next year, maybe they could draft a Gordon level player. Then stayed bad and maybe another. Not the way to go.

    Now there are exceptions: Olawokandi, Kwame, Darko--guys who are drafted at the top and don't perform that way. But there are very, very few guys after 15 who are stars. Tay is about as good as you can expect to get from the 25th pick, a good contibutor, but not the major piece.
  7. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    If Ben Wallace can go undrafted, then there is hope for every spot in the draft. Especially now that players come from all over the World.
  8. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    Tay, there are exceptions to every rule. But no one has built an NBA champion with low draft choices.

    Ben Wallace is an exception yes. Ben is a clear example of getting a guy who can do something no one else can--a piece. Gordon can score at or near the best. Ben Wallace could rebound, block shots and roam like few big men could. Ben was a key piece indeed. But the roster was filled with Billips (3rd pick), Rip (7th pick), Sheed (3rd Pick) and finally Tay near the end of the first round. Tay himself, is not the standard pick in the 20s--outperforming his low draft status.

    The point is that many expected Joe and the Pistons to defy gravity and pick low and come up with stars. There are usually reasons a guy falls into the 20s and beyond--lack of height (Maxiel), lack of game (Amir), lack of a shot (Afflalo) and so on. The star players are taken very early in the draft. Now Stuckey needs to defy the odds for the Pistons to come back to the elite. I think he has the skill set to do it but maybe I am just wishful thinking.
  9. blackhawk

    blackhawk First Round Draft Pick

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    Boozer is not the answer on defensive end..though he could be a tremendous help offensively..

    Boozer is 6'9 max who is soft on defense...

    I would rather have Villanueva at center...At least he is 6'11....Neither of them play defense..

    Boozer's contract would also be in a contract year...If he turns out to be good great..Otherwise it would be a cap space move for 2010 free agency.
  10. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    You could have said something very similar in baseball before the moneyball phenomenon. It definitely takes creativity to do something out of the ordinary. I'm not sure that NBA GM's have had much creativity over the years.

    What Dumars created in 2004 was very close to the exception you are talking about. Even though CB was a high pick, he was considered a bust and any team could have grabbed him. At that point, he was no more difficult to get than your standard late 1st round picked player. Rip could have been had by almost any team. As you mentioned, Tay was a fairly late pick. Ben was the all-time late bloomer and great find. Okur was a 38th pick and was a superb draft pick. We got Corliss Williamson by trading a 26th pick (Jerome Williams). Mike James was a big part of the team and he was another undrafted player. Getting Sheed and James was one of those moves that you make when you are on the verge of something great, and that is what we did by sending a big ol pile of junk in exchange for them (Sura, Hunter, Atkins, Rebraca). We also gave the Celtics a 1st round pick in 2004 as the final piece of the deal... they selected Tony Allen with that pick. Of course we had a #2 draft pick, but only played him 159 minutes that year.

    The entire Championship team was constructed without drafting any better than 23rd. We only paid the NBA Finals MVP $5 Million that year! The DPOY Ben Wallace only got $5.5 Million.

    My point is that Dumars is not GM-ing for a glamorous city. He can't use the same formula as everyone else and expect to win it all... because the Kobes and Lebrons of the league will choose other destinations for the same amount of $$. Dumars forged his own path and made GM's across the league wonder if they should be emulating him. He assembled hard working players and talented players who had been humbled/ broken. He required defense to be the #1 priority. He only took on reasonable contracts. [strike]He drafted well. [/strike] He sent secret text messages to himself. He was cool.
  11. pass99

    pass99 Team Captain Forum Donor

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    Another great post. I'm worried about you.

    Think two big, colliding events: perceptions riding upon frustrations terminating toward seemingly dead ends; the right time element of player maturation that creatively adapts...with a vengeance.

    We all survive because of the capacity to change and the magnificent response toward opportunity.
  12. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    I agree with the gist of what you say and I am amazed at how often Joe is bashed on both boards. What you say is why I don't think Joe could wait for 2010. The Pistons would not get Le Bron, Wade, etc. But I will point out that the bulk of that 2004 starting 5 were high draft picks indeed. Billips had shown enough talent that Boston took him as the 3rd pick. Sheed was a major talent also going 3rd. And Rip was a star in college who went 7th. These players had talent and everyone knew it early in their careers. They were not projects. But they were undervalued for various reasons or overlooked.

    Joe is trying to do the same thing now. I think Chicago made a huge mistake on Gordon. He plays like a number 3 pick on offense. That is saying a lot. To get a Gordon, the Pistons would have to be in the bottom 5 and get the 3rd ping pong ball. I like Joe's way better.
  13. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    I for one am much happier that we got CV instead of Boozer. Boozer would've cost us 2.5 times what CV's contract is. Boozer can't defend anybody and fades away in the playoffs. His production was easily replaced by a 24 year old Millsap when he got injured.

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