Could The Iverson/Pistons Problem Have Been Fixed?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by indiefan23, Apr 10, 2009.

  1. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    FOX Sports on MSN - NBA - No question, Iverson was never the Answer

    This **** pisses me off. The guy has played with broken bones all over his body. He didn't quit. Our team shut him down. He could still be playing but we needed a scapegoat for this miserable season and look at who the Pistons found to put it on...a perfect target.

    We were an organization that people dreamed of 5 years ago. Selfless and hardworking. It wasn't about the championship. It was about how we got there. Amazing how a team can unravel that fast. Its not about the losses, but its how we have went from a winning to a losing team. Pointing the finger at whoever is the easiest target i.e. Flip, AI. This is sad.
  2. brofmfa

    brofmfa Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    Joe, who hired Flip and hanged on with Flip too long where the team lost their identity.
  3. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    Here is my thing. You cant blame this on one person. Cannot. Too many holes in that logic.
  4. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Actually, that is how a management hierarchy works.

    After you shuffle the employees, then you shuffle the superintendents, eventually people look at you and wonder if the shuffler needs a shuffle.
  5. monrams99

    monrams99 First Round Draft Pick

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    Well I agree ROSCOE!! but for me 8th seed it takes a miracle to advance to the finals. I am truly frustrated with the outcome of this dissapointing season but well. I hope Joe D may do some major changes...I dunno Im just gonna cross my fingerssss..
  6. indiefan23

    indiefan23 First Round Draft Pick

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    Outstanding? Really? Over 9 seasons in Minny with KG he failed to make the playoffs or got bounced in the first round 8 times. Once they got to the west finals because Cassall is a coach on the floor.

    Then in Detroit he made the east finals because he had inherited Larry Brown's team whom he'd already taught to play together (especially D'ing up) and had another coach type to run things on the floor in Billups. Flip's a good regular season coach but a drastic failure when the sidelines really starts to matter in the playoffs.

    I mean, he had KG for 9 years man and their defense was ranked 20'th, 15'th, 23'rd, 11'th, 12'th, 15'th, 15'th, 16'th, 6'th (the one positive year with Sam and Spree), 14'th, 22'nd. They traded KG to the Celtics. #1 rannked defense. Championship. Its inexcusable.

    He had KG for 9 years and failed to 1. build a team around him or 2. got outcoched regularly in the playoffs when you wern't beating up on crappy teams.

    Flip seems like a cool enough guy to play for but he's a terrible, terrible coach. How do you reconcile those numbers?
  7. indiefan23

    indiefan23 First Round Draft Pick

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    I agree totally. And losing Ben Wallace. I always felt he was the heart of the whole team. They just didn't commit to defense anymore. Him and Larry Brown are what made the team click.
  8. Nemo

    Nemo Hall of Fame Forum Donor

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    One person does not set the tone for a good defensive team (KG).
    A coach does not bring aboard the players to make a championship run.
    Pistons won 10 playoff games each year that Flip coached.
    Players simply "threw the switch" at that point of the run.
    Larry doesn't teach...ask his rookies, they don't play...He bullies...
  9. detteam

    detteam All-Star

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    I hadn't heard of this before. If true, it seems strange that Joe would try to get things worked out through AI's agent rather than with AI himself.

    Bob Finnan's three points and NBA rumor mill - The News-Herald Sports : Breaking news coverage for Northern Ohio
  10. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Nu-uh. It was his back. It just wasn't healed to the point where he could plan in a manner that he was accustomed to. It just didn't make sense for him to risk permanent disability for a silly game. He will look back on this in 10 years and know that he made the right decision.
  11. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    You're on a roll today :pound:

    I think everyone knows it was a mutual divorce that had little to do with a serious injury.
  12. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Lpgrl, with all due respect... the only reason that you are able to say that is because you do not have a crush on him.
  13. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    Did the team force him to say he was going to retire rather than come off the bench or similtaneously complain about being hurt and not playing enough minutes?
  14. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Iverson tailored a compromise position — points guard. For much of his career, he played both backcourt positions at the same time, leaving his teammates plenty of opportunity to stand around and watch. In 13 NBA seasons, he's averaged 22 shots, 27 points, six assists and 42 percent shooting from the field. In comparison, Isiah Thomas averaged 16 shots, 19 points, nine assists and connected on 45 percent of his shots. In 11 seasons, Thomas played in 111 playoff games and won two titles. Iverson has played in 71 postseason games and advanced to the conference and NBA Finals just once.

    While the notion of a "points guard" is pretty cute, most of this is just a stat throw-up with little understanding or purpose.

    AI - 27 points on 22 shots - 1.23 points per shot
    IT - 19 point on 16 shots - 1.19 point per shot
    This proves the point how? Isn't 1.23 higher than 1.19?

    AI - six assists / IT - nine assists
    O.k., definitely more, but try tossing the ball to the the ragtag bunch AI played with rather than Dumars, Johnson, Aguire/Dantley, and Laimbeer and see if it changes. I guess I'm not sure why the fact that Isiah was a much better point guard says something bad about AI. And I suspect that Isiah playing with those Sixers teams would have had fewer assists, scored more, and shot less well.

    No doubt, the AI experiment was one colossal failure. AI goes away with a major black eye and may have torpedoed both his reputation and the rest of his career. But, why not just say that and avoid tossing in random statistics that don't even support your point?
  15. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    That article makes Isiah look really bad.
  16. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    That's not the case in Charlotte. Or Indiana.

    Antonio Davis
    Travis Best
    Erick Dampier
    Tim Thomas
    Vernon Maxwell
    Willie Anderson
    Sean Elliot
    David Robinson
    Larry Hughes
    Todd MacCulloch
    Raja Bell
    Speedy Claxton
    Sam Dalembert
    John Salmons

    Those are some of the rookies LB has coached, and had significant roles in their team's rotation as a rookie. There are more.

    Larry has a lot of faults. But he's fantastic dealing with (real) talent.
  17. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    Not to mention DJ Augustine (sp?) which adds nothing to your point, but i felt the need to point that out b/c i love watching him play LOL
  18. indiefan23

    indiefan23 First Round Draft Pick

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    Ya, know, I just can't help but disagree. A good defensive team is always backed up by an anchor who can protect the paint and help on defense that the wings funnel into him. Garnet is amazing at this. Wallace's on bad boys 2 (esp Ben). Shaq on the strong Laker teams. Look at Duncan. The Spurs are consistantly one of the top 3 defensive teams in the league yet they start Tony Parker at the point and while Manu is good, he's not a lock down kind of guy. It doesn't matter who they put in there, Oberto/Elson/Jarren Jackson Duncan anchor's the D and everyone knows how to play off that anchor.

    You can also look no furhter then KG on the Celtics last year. It wasn't the addition of Ray Allen that gave them the #1 defense in the game. KG absolutly set the tone and the rest of the team responded in him image holding themselves accountable for playing consistant hard defense. They went from running the 16'th best defense to the first with the addition of 'one' player.

    Now on coaching is where I really disagree. And esp about Larry Brown. I honestly do think he's responsible for destroying Darko's confidence which is not a good thing but on the other hand Larry has always been great at teaching young players how to play right. He just never plays them. To this day Darko says he learned the most about ball from Larry.

    He's not the nicest coach in the world but he produces results. Why? Because he makes you play D. Don't D up and play within the system you don't play and your life is miserable. It produces results though. He can wear out his welcome as seen from a few teams that wanted freedom from under him and wanted to run more. So he left those teams. Check out teams he's coached the year before and after he showed up.

    points allowed (aba) or defensive rank

    year before Larry/successive years after LB shows up

    carolina 118/110/5'th
    Denver 6'th/'3rd/4'th/1rst/
    New Jersey 15'th/1rst/
    Spurs 22'nd/13'th/3'rd/1'rst/1'rst/
    Clips 9'th/5'th (half season larry brown)/11'th (its the clips after all and the team wanted to run, not play D, so Larry left)
    Pacers 20'th/8'th/6'th
    76ers 25'th/16'th/5'th/4'th/5'th/4'th
    Pistons 4'th/2'nd//3'rd
    (Pistons already had a great coach in Rick Carlile)
    Knicks 25'th/25'th
    Bobcats 20'th/7'th

    In the case of New York I will call on the Isiah Thomas Corolary which states that any personal blame for losing is negated by that team's being affiliated with Isiah Thomas given the pre-condition that Isiah is wearing a suit.

    When you look at his body of work I think its abundandly clear that one coach can make all the difference to a team commiting or not. Mediocre coaches can't but good coaches can and do.

    Specifically Larry Brown has made all shapes, sizes and styles of teams play signifigantly better. He's fielded 16 top 5 denfensive teams and 4 first place teams almost always starting off in the bottom half of the league.

    To bring it full circle Flip has had one team in the top ten unless he started with a team that already knew how to play. And even then they went from 2'nd to 5'th to 7'th and back to 4'th.

    Not to say its all Flip's fault, or that the success is totally Larry's doing. But there is a trend. When you've got the most versatile, energetic, willing, intimidating, un-mismatchable and committed defender in the league on your team for 9 years and you're regulary in the bottom half of the league on D it says that as a coach, you're not preparing and gearing the team to play to it's strengths but rather to your preference.

    I don't know how Flip keeps getting hired. Aparently the Wiz are going to pick him up and for the life of me I can't tell why. I don't get it... it all seems so obvious to me. You seem to disagree but again... how do you reconsile those numbers?
  19. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    The Wiz aren't really trying to win a Championship. They just want to have a team that seems like it has a chance so that people show up to watch. This is a big step toward that goal.
  20. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    I wonder where he'll be playing in 10 years.

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