could we please stop winning

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by TWOTIMESRALPHI, Feb 19, 2012.

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  1. TWOTIMESRALPHI

    TWOTIMESRALPHI Team Captain 3x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I know, this is something you should not say; you should always support your team. Always hope for it to win, cheer and everything. But I have to say it - these wins do no one a favour. This team needs to tank - tank properly. It needs a top 3 pick to re-build. With this cap situation, the outlook is bad. No free agent who could really help will come to this place. JoeD's last good trade happened about 6 years ago when he acquired Sheed.
    We all want this team to win; but not "only" win, but to win it all. Therefore, a long-term perspective is needed. And in order to win in a couple of seasons, as stated above, a top 3 pick is needed. A proper big next to Monroe at best. A game-changer. Someone who can always score when having the ball in his hands. Who can protect the rim. A constant threat. Call it whatever you want to call it; but being borderline playoff, not worst, but also clearly not having any chance to win it all or even make it to the 2nd round is not helping anyone. I'd rather bear one or even two really really bad seasons than watching this team trying to rebuild via picks at around #8 while the former good picks leave because they don't see any long-term perspective.
  2. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    There is NO WAY that this team will make the playoffs. They are 11-22 right now and it will take about a .500 record to make the playoffs. This means that they would have to go 22-11 (.667) to finish the season.

    The schedule is about to get a little rougher. Four of the next 8 are against playoff teams (Lakers, Hawks, Sixers, Grizzlies). After that, they play 9 out of 10 games on the road. The one home game is against Miami.

    I sort of root the Pistons to lose, as well, but this winning streak has actually been kind of enjoyable. It's nice to see the young guys playing so well. It's also nice to see the vets playing the right way for a change.
  3. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    I thought this thread said 'could we please stop whining' lol
    Its a tricky thing. We're winning because they put in the work for 4 quarters. If they are going to play unselfishly, get each others back defensively, carry each other when they get down, how do you lose on purpose? You will lose these guys.
  4. Nemo

    Nemo Pun Master Forum Donor

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    Half way through the season and we're 11-22. That is not a measure of overall success, but winning 7 of the last 9 is. There is no playoffs for us this season. All we had to cheer for was a good draft pick. Now...we may draft something like 11th. Even though I woulda liked to have seen some tanking, this winning has been refreshing. Not a good plan to curtail a good winning streak with talk of tanking. Effort, teamwork, and a good winning run will always be acceptable to me. Maybe JD can pull a rabbit out of his hat with the 11th pick. Oh well.......Go Pistons........
  5. webz

    webz All-Star Snub Administrator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I think we were sort of lulled into thinking this team is worse than it actually is. I think 9th-11th in the East is more reflective of the calibre of this team rather than 15th-16th. We had some guys miss time with injuries and the whole new guys/new coach thing took time to get going in the shortened season with no practise.

    I think everyone is going to have to accept that we aren't in the worst 3-4 teams in the league and adjust their perceptions/projections accordingly. Our last two picks in the 7-8th spot have worked out so far and that's probably what we are looking at again next draft.
  6. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Every year, fans want us to tank, and one game is always going to be such a huge difference in our draft position.

    Well, we didn't draft top three to get BK or GM.
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  7. alexa032

    alexa032 Team Captain

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    Exactly. The lockout really hurt them. And those last two picks getting better and playing better, along with that in general picking up the team and making them better in turn is going to result in wins. No way around it.
    It's also important to note that Chicago did not have the worst record when they got number 1 overall and Derrick Rose. Cleveland's own pick was number 4 overall last year, the Clips who had, iirc, the 8th worst record got number 1 (Cavs got lucky).
  8. webz

    webz All-Star Snub Administrator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Yeah, I mean if we continued to lose with everyone healthy and remain one of the worst 3 teams in the league it would probably suggest that:
    a) Monroe and Knight aren't the studs we hope they are and/or can't make a team better
    b) Stuckey and Gordon are not producing and therefore being overpaid (well, overpaid to a bigger degree) :cheeky-smiley-012:
    c) Coach Frank isn't a good coach

    While it hurts our chances for the lottery, it would probably be more disappointing and concerning if this team failed to show any improvement whatsoever.
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  9. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    We don't need to tank the whole season....The coach shuffles the lineup until he finds a winning formula. Then you to play to win so that you know how to win. I have League Pass....I started paying for it during the teal years in 1997 and have followed the ups and downs of the team since then. This started off being the worst of the worst until February rolled around. Now at least enjoy how my cash money is being spent....

    I like to see victories...but would be in favor of tanking in April as I have stated on numerous occasions the past week to get a good shot at a higher seed. I know they won't make the playoffs and even if they did, it would be 4 game sweep by either the Bulls or Heat. But lets just enjoy some victories while they are playing well and when the schedule gets rough, and they start losing , we can savor the past victories as something to show the team is growing and meshing as a unit.
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  10. G-man

    G-man Starter

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    you want them to tank. this type of thinking and posting is why i hardly ever bother to post on basketball in here anymore. ya'll's lack of any reasonable amount of patience, your unwillingness to see the good in growth. it's endless proclamations of doom and gloom, greener grass in the neighbors yard and contemptuous disdain for dumars.
    all cynicism.

    face it, many of you are just plain wrong about the character and potential of this team. you didn't give them any respect as a team nor much as individual players. and too many others seeking warmth in conformity were all too happy to jump on the bandwagon. its gone from being the pistonsforum to "why i dislike the pistons" forum. it's always easy to support winners, anyone can do that. many of the "experts" in here should check themselves.

    imo there's never a good reason to want to see professional athletes tank a game for any reason, period. it's selfish. i want to see each and every one of these guys leave it all on the floor every chance they get and let the final chips fall where they may. tanking is cheating. you don't teach cheating as a way to get ahead. it's morally repugnant. it's anti-american.

    i could give two craps who they miss out on in the draft if takes cheating to get them. you want the team and players to dis-honor themselves to make you happier, there's something fundamentally wrong with that.
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  11. max

    max All-Star

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    I find myself doing the same thing. I want them to win but at the same time when they lose I know its doing us the most good, or maybe its just a way of dealing with all the loses.
  12. Nemo

    Nemo Pun Master Forum Donor

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    I used to think like this.........then athletes wanted 5 - 10....... as much as 20-30 million per season. Back in my day, the stars made 100,000 per season and played for the team. Now, they're pretty much free agents and the team means nothing in the NBA. To Stern and his ilk, it's all about marketing individual players and their dunks. My belief is that the players started dishonoring themselves when they started selling themselves to the higest bidder. The honor and team loyalty you talk about has been replaced with greed and jersey sales. These players are professional all right.....but they're more into the entertainment of their craft.........rather than the love of their Logo / team. A TEAM like the 2004 Pistons was worth cheering for.
    Cheering for an iffy player who wants a 50 million contract, and holds out when he hasn't proven anything........I don't cheer for that type of mutinous player...........
  13. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    I'm really enjoying this team right now. They seem to like playing together and it shows in this new win streak. Who would want to watch if the team was tanking? Why would you want to watch that?
  14. max

    max All-Star

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    definitely. When the team was 4-20 there was seemingly nothing else to look forward to other than the draft.
    Now at 11-22 its a totally different season.
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  15. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    :smiley hug:


    If there were a "double like" button to click, I would push it...twice.

    (I just want to add that cheating is anti-Cannuckian :canada: as well as anti-American :usa2: ). It isn't that the Cannuckians find cheating morally repugnant. It's because they haven't figured out how to do it yet.
  16. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I don't read every single post like I used to, but this board has been really good this year. Maybe your standard is very very high, or maybe you haven't been reading as much as in the past, when the attitude was depressing (2 seasons ago was the worst for me).

    There are a lot of great discussions and quality posts here these days. I couldn't be more proud of this group. Some of that has to do with who isn't posting and some of that has to do with who has stepped up in a posting leader role (Alexa in game threads for example).

    I'll admit I wasn't sure things would turn around here, but I did display a reasonable amount of patience. :)

    Wrt tanking, the point Ralphi is making is a consequentialist point of view. If tanking can get us better players, then it is ok to tank. You may disagree with the method, but his means are consistent with his ends.
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  17. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Thanks Mr G.
  18. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    This team DOES need one more top prospect and was in a position to get it within two months. Not now.

    The problem is that yes, the Pistons are not THAT bad (good problem in the long term) and other teams in the league are really tanking. New Orleans has been tanking. New Jersey injured. Charlotte legitimately bad. Washington has no chemistry and very young. Toronto bad and no Bargani. Sacramento no chemistry and very young and so on.

    And then you have teams like Boston, without Garnet, and aging, that was easy to knock off.

    Knight now does not lose the ball as much. Stuckey has found a bit of a groove. Gordon has hit some shots. Maxiel has brought a minimum of toughness in the paint. JJ is good off the bench--if only he could actually shoot around the basket (someone tell him to stop those wild scoops and hooks). Monroe can outplay a lot of teams bigs already. Prince has been steady. The coach is avoiding unproductive players on the roster.

    So, the good is that the team will start winning within two years. The concern is that the young core, is likely still missing a piece. That would mean that Stuckey would have to step up big time and be a part of that young core and not future trade bait. Or, Monroe and Knight will have to have been top five picks who accidentily slipped in the draft. This is true of Monroe--he is the Piston top three pick. Too early to say about Knight.

    If you have a solid young core who get good, then you can bring in a free agent. But how good and how deep is the young core???
  19. G-man

    G-man Starter

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    hey nemo. brother you're conflating issues. the players are paid a percentage of net profit. as the nba's popularity grew along with sterns ability to exploit same the cash registers started ringing. the players share of the overall compensation rises like driftwood on a wave as a percentage of those net receipts. they do get obscene amounts of money, but if they didn't get it, the owners would keep all of it. it's the micro/macro scenario. we all are paying too much otherwise the opportunity to skim so much wouldn't be there to start with, but we've made that choice already. and in truth that's a whole different argument, a different debate.

    allow me an analogy, the professional b-ball teams that populate most of the mid-west and much of the nba are like hockey's grind lines. we're the McCartys, the Drapers, the Bob Proberts of the nba. we're the schools that ripen the talent that then ends up in the nba's "glory towns", like la, boston, miami, ny etc. we are never going to be like those other places. you will never get instantaneous satisfaction as a detroit pistons fan. we aren't made that way.

    if you want and desire instant gratification you need to find another team to support, one that consistently over shoots the runway on cap space, one that's situated in a "glory town" where the klieg lights and endorsement deals bathe their celebrities in the external validation and piles of green that they demand. that's where you'll find faster gratification. not in detroit.

    a couple months back someone was going on about getting top tier free agents, and i pointed out that detroit has never signed a top tier free agent. not because of an unwillingness on detroit's part, but because of an unwillingness on the free agents part. but you don't have to believe me, go pull up any piston history site and you'll find i'm correct. search through the transactions link over the last five decades. the tier one guys that have played in detroit, either came through the program or we traded for them. that's a harsh reality but reality none the less.

    detroit builds clysdales not quarter horses. it's the nature of a whole assortment of market dynamics. a bunch of you guys want to see a horse race, you want to see us turn on a dime and we can't do that. so you'll never be happy. and coming in here and suggesting that we cheat, that we dishonor ourselves in response to your impatience is shortsighted and a little sad. you might ought study the historical character of the team, the city, it's natives and the game. you're strapping a saddle on the wrong horse.

    the nba game - and our love of it, it's very success, is what compromises us. the sooner ya'll come to that realization, that we have limitations on the timelines of what we build as opposed to what others build - the better off your mental health will be. i have been watching the pistons since bob lanier pulled on the red, white and blue (1970). in that time, over that long haul, its clear that we have to find our core satisfaction in watching guys grow. enjoying the games nuances.
    of course i want to win championships, who doesn't? but what you learn over time is thing move in cycles, different cycles in different places for different reasons.

    and cheating is cheating. there is no moral or ethical difference in cheating to win or cheating to lose. i don't want my team to cheat. i don't care what other morals or lack thereof are on display in other places (see cleveland cavaliers 2002,2003 lebron james). there is never honor in cheating. in our world, our gladiators are on the rosters of all the various professional sports franchises. they should take each field with the intent to win it. anything less is unprofessional and should be unacceptable to all those paying to see them. you cannot rationalize away dishonor. it is what it is. and as far as fairness, who said life is supposed to be fair? it isn't. get over it.

    now this little forum has far more readers than posters. and we all should remember that. there's a lot of bright guys in here that could be pointing out the little things, like growth by players month to month, or changes in the coaches schemes to hide flaws or take advantage of specific strengths. the quiet readers, the young ones, can learn something positive from that. they can't learn anything from anyone enunciating, promoting we should cheat to win.

    other than the world is an immoral place. is that the message we really want to teach? that we win at any cost? is that really winning?
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  20. S.J.

    S.J. All-Star Forum Donor

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    Meaning what? That Joe Dumars drafts good players? Or it is just LUCK?

    Stuckey was a 15th pick also if you count that.
    Then again, is luck or is Joe D an expert in drafts?
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