Damn Refs!

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by linwood, May 2, 2007.

  1. linwood

    linwood All-Star

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    ESPN.com - NBA - Report: White refs call more fouls on black players

    I must say, this is something I have never noticed in all the NBA games I have watched. However, I've never thought to look before.
  2. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I saw that but wasn't sure if I should post it. lol

    Study: NBA Referees Racially Biased

    It's funny that the NBA does their own inquiry that makes them look good.

    Reminds me of the weekend Game 4 between Miami and Chicago. Jim Gray interviews Stern on the sideline and goes after him like a pitbull. Asks Stern about the Seattle owner saying they are going to move to Vegas, Stern says "He did not say that."

    Gray replies that it was confirmed by the owner's public relations officer, and Stern says, "He will issue a retraction."

    At one point, Stern finally tells Jim, "Can't we just focus on this series and bla blabla?" He can't handle the tough questions, but he is a slippery as an eel.
  3. Nemo

    Nemo Hall of Fame Forum Donor

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    I'm only surprised that it didn't occour at a higher percentage rate. The ills of society affect all job descriptions.
  4. TwYcH

    TwYcH First Round Draft Pick

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    I am listining to Colin Cowherd on ESPN.com: ESPNRadio.com right now....

    He is talking about this subject.:nerd2:

    I like The Herd
  5. Dumars4Ever

    Dumars4Ever Bench Warmer

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    I think that while this study is probably very sound in terms of statistical analysis, it's not clear that it makes so much of a difference that anything major would need to be done about it. As linwood says, it's not the sort of thing most of us would ever notice, and the story quotes a couple of players (Mike James and Alan Henderson) as not having noticed anything along those lines either. On one political blog that I read, someone pointed this out:

    The authors of the study agree with that, at least somewhat:

  6. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    In a related topic, I was discussing the immigration rallies with a friend yesterday.

    The topic came up that if you have laws, then you should probably enforce them.

    Which then made me think of the speed limit laws on highways. The speed limits are so low, that virtually all drivers break the law when they drive. This sets the table for "selective enforcement" from the police. When you have a system like that, it really opens the doors for discrimination... i.e., a cop can discriminate without showing it, because the black motorist he pulls over was technically speeding.

    It's a little like that in the NBA I think. Players grab and hold and there is a high amount of selective enforcement of the NBA rules. Holding in football is similar. So, this means that the refs have to choose when to follow the letter of the law and when to turn a blind eye. This split second decision point is probably affected by biases that are so ingrained and subtle that the refs don't even know they are doing it.

    And I think that is what the article was getting at.
  7. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    I think what the officials have to keep in mind is that even though you can't call everything....the bottom line is there has to be a level playing field for all players of both teams. Calling the game as evenly as possible includes not letting players like LeBron take 12 steps without dribbling. That stuff just ruins the integrity of the game.
  8. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    So when is Dirk going to capitalize on his white prize and get past golden state already? :pound:

    Why couldn't Joe have used this to his advantage and signed a guy for the playoffs to hack the crap out of the likes of Shaq?

    Thats 5% more hurt on the Diesel for the same cost as Dale davis fouling out. :gun1:

    This is ridiculous. :yellowprison:
  9. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Maybe we can make a move and get Doleac next year.

    Too bad we traded Darko before this report came out. This information will surely boost his negotiating power by about 5% with Orlando.
  10. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Better question is why isn't Utah cleaning up right now?
  11. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    I think the whole reason for the study is an underhanded push to get more white players into the League. They try to make it seem that the more white guys you have the easier the refs will be on you. Very sneaky.
  12. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    The article did say it was a two way street, although the effect was "less pronounced" in black refs calling fouls on white players. So, what was the difference. Was it like whites call 5% more on blacks but blacks "only" call 4 % more on whites?

    I'd like the facts.

    Also, we probably need a stat genius like our own DBA to figure this out but what is the margin of error considering there are much fewer white players in the league than black players? Does that affect this at all?

    You know, I was all for Imus getting fired, but for now, I will say this white/black ref thing is a bunch of bunk. This is absolutely NOT a reflection on Linwood for posting it. He's just sharing info, but I think the people who wrote it were just looking to stir the pot. :stirthepot:
  13. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    What I find interesting is the amount of "white" players in the nba that are European. I think they get jobbed with an inordinate amount of quick whistles.
  14. explosivity

    explosivity First Round Draft Pick

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    If this is indeed true, it doesnt suprise me in the least bit. Even in a league dominated by a minority, the minority still can't cannot obtain equallity, justice and objectivity.

    Off the subject, hate to say it but the "league" is probably salivating at the fact that the MVP will be caucasian for a third time in a row. Although I never had a problem with this before it just make you wonder a little about the "league." Anyway, the MVP is a regular season award and Steve and Dirk are the kings of the regular season. In the playoffs I'm looking for guys who are gonna will their teams to victory despite who they play. Nash and Nowitzki in my opinion do not fit that category and never will.

    :stirthepot: :angrysoapbox:
  15. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Andrei Kirilenko sheds tears after being informed of his secret Nigerian heritage.

    ...He hasn't been able to buy a whistle ever since.

    [​IMG]
  16. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Look guys, bottom line is without knowledge of what referee made what calls this study is more than worthless.

    When the players union contends something like this then it will be time to get upset about it.
  17. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I bet this was commissioned by Stern to deflect attention away from his ref rigging. This makes it seem like the refs are 95% fair.
  18. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    :pound:
  19. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    LOL at the Kirilenko picture.


    I think that is a bit of an overstatement explosivity...but even if this officiating bias is true which the League study denies...how would you feel about the League making an effort to have the racial makeup of the officiating crews be more proportionate to the racial makeup of the players?
  20. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    You see, that would involve me going downstairs and asking one of those modeler folks who work for me which would involve me demonstrating how much I don't really know. This might pose a serious problem for the chain of command.

    From what I've read...

    The NBA used full knowledge of who called what foul. I.e., ref x who is white called foul y on player z. Now of course it is illegal to ask employees their race so someone had to determine who is black, white, Asian, native American, Eskimo, and what have you. All right, maybe Jess Kersey isn't so hard.

    Assuming this is what they did, the league had census information so the rates of foul calling they produced are the actual numbers - no confidence intervals required.

    The other guys didn't have this data and would have had to create a model that estimated the foul calling rates based on the racial makeup of the entire crew (all black, all white, 1-2, 2-1). This model could have confidence intervals placed around the estimates, but without knowing what sort of technique they used, or having access to the data there really isn't a way to guess what those might look like.

    But, you are right, that the racial makeup of the players and of the refs certainly did not remain constant over the period of the study. I'd guess that the rate of foul calling varied too. Certainly having actual knowledge of who called what foul on whom is a better way to measure the effect. Assuming no one is trying to make their approach look better for some unknown selfish reason (:)), then the NBA with full knowledge ought to be able to make a better determination.

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