Darko

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Jackattaq, Sep 19, 2006.

  1. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Nice post Lazy.

    I just realized some similarities with the Darko situation and the Mike Williams one with the Lions.

    I'm so tired of the doublespeak and misinformation from the organizations and players.
  2. hack

    hack First Round Draft Pick

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    ``What you do not do is go out and hire a coach who does not play young people''

    I missed this. Reminder: the point is to win championships, not develop talent. We'd just been to the ECF, had coaching issues, and suddenly one of the three best active coaches in the game came available. Of course you hire him. You can't risk the franchise's contending present for a theoretical future.
  3. max

    max All-Star

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    Should have traded the pick then. If you can't play a top 3 then its better to trade him. Not 3 years after the fact but before we even picked it.
  4. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    championships plural. lb won a championship. joe gave him the players to win championships. i'm talking 5 out of 8 type of championship run.

    playing darko 7 minutes would not have risked our present. the present at the time wasn't a sure thing either. chauncey even said playing darko wouldn't have cost us any games. development is an essential key to basketball. you maintain your team with development you can build it with free agency and trades. why even have young players on your team if there is no development responsibility from the coaches.
  5. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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  6. hack

    hack First Round Draft Pick

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    Definitely true. Until we score a guy we can pay the max to and surround with cheap and replaceable players, we're going to be dependent on young talent that hasn't cashed in yet. That's the flaw in Joe's ``no stars'' model. Eventually you have to pay too many players MLE+ money, and then you end up with a short bench, tired legs and less rings than you should.
  7. lurker

    lurker First Round Draft Pick

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    The many discussions of the Darko situation revolve around three possible mistakes:

    1. In 2003, picking Darko at #2 in an outstanding draft class.

    2. From 2003 to 2006, denying Darko the opportunity to become a valuable contributor.

    3. In 2006, trading Darko along with Carlos Arroyo for Orlando's #1 pick and Kelvin Cato.

    Almost everyone here seems to agree on #3, that it was a mistake to trade a recent #2 pick who might develop into a perennial All-Star and get so little in return.

    The disagreements involve mistakes #1 and #2. Darko's strongest supporters maintain that the Darko pick was the right move for any team that had the #2 pick in 2003, and focus on mistakes #2 and #3.

    I see all three as mistakes. I think Darko himself was a victim of the massive hype machine that swept through the league in the weeks leading up to the draft (with Chad Ford being the worst offender). Joe clearly bought into it. If Darko had dropped a few slots he wouldn't have faced so much scrutiny, and I think his career would gotten off to a better start.

    When Darko's name first came up before the draft I googled for everything I could find about him. What I found was that he looked extremely impressive in workouts, but there was no evidence that he had played a meaningful role on a basketball team at any level, and no evidence of any type or work ethic or basketball IQ. He talked about wanting to come to the U.S. and make a lot of money, not about his love for the game. Of course, he was a 17-year-old kid from a screwed up country, so maybe it's unreasonable to expect a lot more, but I had a bad feeling on draft night.

    So those are the three mistakes: the Pistons were a bad match for Darko, they screwed up his development (and he handled the situation poorly), and the trade was a stinker. Joe is a smart guy and I'm sure he's learned some important lessons here, and Darko is free to do his thing, but this one is going to hurt for a while.
  8. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Part of the problem is that by the time we decided to trade Darko, his value to another team is very low because they could only use him for 1.5 seasons before having to renegotiate his salary. Everyone probably figured that it would take him at lease a season's worth of experience before he could really help them out in an important situation.

    It is like trying to sublet your apartment with 4 months left on the lease. You're not going to get a great price.
  9. 16 Mile

    16 Mile Bench Warmer

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    A couple of points:
    Most people agree LB is a great coach when he wants to be, the problem is in the past few years, he's been more concerned with settling personal grudges than coaching. And it only got worse when he went to NY.

    The lack of respect given to LB is directly proportional to the lack of respect he gave the Pistons. And if trying to get a job with Cleveland during the playoffs doesn't earn contempt, I'm not sure what does.

    As for Darko's effort issues, I can't recall anyone, including LB, saying he didn't work hard in practice or the off season. The problem was he didn't play hard in garbage time, or made mistakes in real time. Well, rooks make mistakes, and the players that play the (imho) hardest in gt tend to be stat mongers or low talent athletes trying to prove themselves.

    BTW, if Darko had such a bad work ethic, explain how he was in such good physical conditioning for the Worlds? Or how he managed to look good, inspite of sitting on the bench for 3 years? If he hasn't been working out, or working on his game, he's even better than I thought.

    And last, Darko sulked when not played, he put up poor efforts in garbage time, and he expected to be given more pt. I wonder how many GMs and coaches would put up with those "problems" from a #2 overall draft pick? My bet, everyone but the Pistons and Bill Parcells.
  10. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    Right now, I'm in the camp of if you drafted him, why didn't you do everything you could to <<secret message for bball jay, 16 mile, twotimesralph: if you don't mind, please look up from the darko thread and mosey on over to http://www.pistonsforum.com/fantasy-basketball/3610-novice-league-news-06-07-a-5.html#post50428. end secret message>> ensure that that pick pans out for you. The opportunity costs alone are staggering. I, for one, am disappointed that he is gone. I had figured that he'd be hitting his stride about now...when we needed it. He's a little behind on development. But only a little.
  11. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    << begin secret message- I totally agree with you. Secret message will now self destruct >>
  12. 16 Mile

    16 Mile Bench Warmer

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    Yup,
    Taking this point to an extreme, imagine having a kid, and then saying "Prove you're worth me paying for your college education, all I see is a lot of dirty diapers."

    Joe D, LB, and Flip refused to change the diapers and were suprised that the pick ended up smelling like ...

    So they put the kid up for adoption, Orlando picks him, changes the diapers, adds in some unconditional loving along with the tough love, and voila, future all-star.
  13. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    LB had his own diapers to worry about.
  14. hack

    hack First Round Draft Pick

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    16 mile, we hire a coach to coach the team, not be a nice guy. I was angry at LB too for his playoff bull%%%% last year, but all that faded pretty fast when it became clear how deficient the new guy is. Guys like LB are hard to find.
  15. lazyberbs

    lazyberbs First Round Draft Pick

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    Thank the basketball gods for that.

    Maybe Rick would have won the 'ship with the team he had been bringing along (maybe still picking up Sheed, maybe not). He might have even won two, but we would not be worse off than we are now.

    And, Hack, we hire a coach to coach the team. Right on!! But since when is developing a team for the long haul the wrong way to do it? A good coach, in my mind, brings the TEAM along, not just his pets, and does not delibrately lie to, disrespect, and disallusion one of the long-term assets of that team.
  16. hack

    hack First Round Draft Pick

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    That's a great idea, but the NBA does not exist solely in your mind. Reality: the coach thinks for today, the GM for tomorrow. It is an extremely common source of friction between the two roles, yet a good one. Doug Collins was an example of what goes wrong when you give coaching and GM responsibilities to one person. The problem is ultimately and ideally resolved by the players -- those that deserve minutes get them.

    For the record, what you're saying about Carlisle is speculation and baseless. We know that LB pushed to get Sheed here, so even if you're among the crowd that says Sheed was the diff and not LB, you have to acknowledge that LB played a pretty damn important role. Plus, Carlisle was fired for basically the same reason LB was -- he pissed off the owner and to a lesser extent was a jerk to the players. So anyone citing LBs behavior should be citing Rick's too.
  17. lazyberbs

    lazyberbs First Round Draft Pick

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    Hack, your opening sentence is over my head. I don't know what you mean by that. I see the NBA writeups in the paper and realize that it actually exists outside my head.

    I really have to disagree with you about the jobs of each, the GM and the coach. There have been great coaches who kept the team successful for long periods by utilizing the team, rather than six or seven players.

    And even if you are right, then was it not Joe's job to try to ensure that the Pistons longevity extended beyond the year they were in? That is why the GM hires the coach. He has the responsibility that the coach lives up to the long and short-term goals of the team.

    There is no way that a player capable enough to be drafted 2nd overall in the league should be allowed to rot at the end of the bench for 2 and a half seasons. No Way!!

    Either you play him to see what he can do, and to save your "real NBA players" from some of the debilitating effects of playing somewhere around 100 games per season, or to find that you have a player that you do not want and can get something for him before he becomes a "complete and utter failure" at age 19.

    I won't even bother to go back into the LB thing. I have long ago made my opinion of him and I am sure people are tired of hearing it.


    Anyway, there is plenty of room for disagreement on the forums. You know how boring it gets around here when we have nothing to argue about. :gun1: :stirthepot: :fencing: :deadhorse !!
  18. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    :pound: If ever there was a time when a rim shot smily was needed, this would be it.:lol:
  19. hack

    hack First Round Draft Pick

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    ``A good coach, in my mind, brings the TEAM along, not just his pets, and does not delibrately lie to, disrespect, and disallusion one of the long-term assets of that team.''

    And I'm telling you that what's in your mind isn't really applicable to what actually goes on. I agree -- the ideal coach does both. Reality, which is not really something you can choose to disagree with, is that coaches think short term. So to answer your question, yes -- I guess if there's blame to be spread among the Pistons management, it goes to Joe and not Darko.

    As for long ago making your opinion of LB, well, it sucks. The above exchange indicates that maybe you're not treating him fairly. I mean, Isiah was 100x the prick that LB is, and 100x the %%%%% that Ben turned out to be. Yet he is still revered here for what he gave us -- lifetime memories. We're a little bit spoiled. There are some fans that will never get rings. They'd love to have LB, warts and all, and have a shot at a ring. Yes, we're disappointed we didnt' get more, but the one we got, with LB at the helm, was pretty damn good. Everyone involved has got my vote forever, and I think it really sucks that so few fans are appreciative of LB in that way.
  20. lazyberbs

    lazyberbs First Round Draft Pick

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    "As for long ago making your opinion of LB, well, it sucks. The above exchange indicates that maybe you're not treating him fairly. I mean, Isiah was 100x the prick that LB is, and 100x the %%%%% that Ben turned out to be. Yet he is still revered here for what he gave us -- lifetime memories. We're a little bit spoiled. There are some fans that will never get rings. They'd love to have LB, warts and all, and have a shot at a ring. Yes, we're disappointed we didnt' get more, but the one we got, with LB at the helm, was pretty damn good. Everyone involved has got my vote forever, and I think it really sucks that so few fans are appreciative of LB in that way".

    Hack, if it sucks to have an opinion of LB after hearing about him for a couple of decades, you must really hate those guys who thought Darko was a bust at age 19/20 :gun1: :angrysoapbox:

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