Darko

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Jackattaq, Sep 19, 2006.

  1. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    i agree setting picks is helpful and passing too and offensive rebounds. those are the things ben should have focused on. my problem is ben wanted people to purposely give him the rock. ben's man often didn't check him so ben setting a pick is not effective because his defender will just double team or just layoff into the passing lane.

    couldn't any brick off the bench set picks??

    ben was left out of the offense because he has no offensive skills.
     
  2. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Bballjay, I have a challenge for you.

    There is always another side to a debate. I would like you to tell me a few reasons why Darko will never be an impact player that are completely under his control.

    If it takes you more than 5 mins to come up with an answer that doesn't turn into how the world doesn't give him a chance, you my friend are suffering from a severe case of Darko obsession. Seek help. Please.

    I'll do the same.

    Ben Wallace version:
    • Age has finally caught up with him and his statistical decline continues in Chicago
    • Ben could have problems adapting to Chicago's defensive system effectively eliminating his strongest asset
    • The guilt of leaving the Detroit Pistons could adversely affect his gameplay
    • His teammates will be less forgiving of his inadequacies on offensive thus effecting his confidence
    • Ben reads all of bballjay's rants about his egotism and irrevelance and as a result realizes that he has no place in the league anymore
     
  3. DaviaG-Rap

    DaviaG-Rap First Round Draft Pick

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    I have a question for you. Do you think McDyess is an impact player for the Pistons? Because Darko was arguably more productive in Orlando last season. You see he already is an impact player and will only get better so your question is rediculous.
     
  4. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    I like you DaviaG-Rap.

    I guess what I have to define is "impact". You're right, my question was not clear. In this sense I was really referring to all-star quality. I agree with you that Darko has a place in this league, the amount of impact he will have in this league is still up for discussion.

    To answer your question, I do think that Dice had an impact last year although I wasn't overly impressed with his playoff performance. Was he all-star worthy? Absolutely not. Do I think he will ever be again. Nope.

    The purpose of the exercise is to see if bballjay can think objectively, not to refute Darko's potential. In all honesty I think he will pan out, but he is just as likely to underachieve as Eric Dampier or Danny Manning. I'm a member of the let Darko prove himself fan club.
     
  5. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    now just which offensive play would you trust ben doing?? i think flip made the right choice in only throwing ben oops. yup. exactly now he has an ego. he went from just wanting to play defense to getting upset cause he isn't getting the ball. he's upset cause we practice offense.
    mcdyess blocks shots too. he isn't a slouch on defense. he makes great plays but gets no respect from the refs. but he absolutely blows ben out of the water on offense.

    ben is old. conditioning halt the aging process it's going to happen.

    i know defense wins. i just realize that defense only can't win a championship. you need players that have the ability to play both ends of the court. not a player that feels he deserves the first shot of the game cause he got some rebounds and blocks.

    it depends on the way they left. ben leaves a sour taste in my mouth. the way he had a part in running darko out of town. the way he hired a hard ball agent. the way he quit on us midseason. the way he went mia in the playoffs.

    i understood why darko left.


    darko was ready just ask orlando. he hit the ground running. just imagine if we had been giving him 7 minutes a game all season. for the last 2 seasons. ben is a bench player in my opinion. a specialist that isn't too good at his specialty anymore.

    is gary payton a champion?? darko was on the team and he won it. when darko wins 5 titles during his career nobody will remember he won the first in his rookie year on the bench. wade had more oppurtunity and more contribution. if lb had gave darko the call in game 7 he would have been a hero and that would have been too much for lb's catheter to take. i have no doubt that darko could have checked duncan for 3 minutes. better than tayshaun i'm sure.

    ben wasn't effective against shaq not in the least. been did refuse to go back into the game. the facts speak for themselves. what other conclusion can you draw???
     
  6. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    I know I said I was done, but I couldn't resist.

    When Larry forced Ben to develop his offensive game it was yielding positive results. We were most effective when he was a part of the offense. Maybe Ben had a legitimate point. And which play you ask? An open jump shot here and there. A post play every so often. Basically everything he was getting under Larry and receiving modest success with. Ben's game took a huge step back with Flip's arrival and it had everything to do with Ben having a coach that was unwillingly to watch his offensive game develop. Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I actually enjoyed watching Ben's offensive game blossum. It was a work in progress but it was definitely coming along.

    Yeah, he blocks some shots, but he is not near Ben's calibur at all defensively. That's not an anamoly though. 95% of the league can't match Ben defensively. Dice's success on offense is dwarfed by Ben's defensive dominance in my opinion. Apparently, most of the league shares my thoughts seeing that the DPOY award is voted on by a large panel of folks.

    Ben is not that old yet. He is getting older. There is nothing to suggest that Ben can't continue to stay in shape for a couple more years. He has not bottomed out by any stretch of the imagination. When he does, he won't be playing.

    I think he was merely agruing to be involved in the offense, instead his offensive game was forced to regress back 3 years. The whole I want to be the featured player on offense arguement you are conjuring up is all in your head.

    Ben has stayed out of trouble his entire tenure as a Piston. He's been a great role model and was one of the reasons why people came back to see the Pistons play after the Teal years. There is a reason he was beloved by most of the town. You could see the dude's heart on his sleeve when he played for us. He sacrificed his body and his free time for a city that noone wanted to play for. We won the championship due to his ability to play Shaq one on one. When he left, he had nothing but positive things to say about the team and the city. Very few comments. Dude, was very humble. He just wanted to feel appreciated by the franchise. He didn't even unleash a full barrage at the coach. In short, he has done nothing to have his character assasinated by you or anyone else. If the Pistons and Ben are wise enough to see that the two sides seemingly grew apart, why can't you?

    Come on, bballjay. Playing a regular season game is nothing like a playoff game. Let it go, man. Just let it go. Maybe you should look at some vintage Jerry Stackhouse or Cliff Robinson film.


    But he didn't. I hate to tell you this but the only footnote that will exist with Detroit and Darko during that championship run will be a one liner, "the human victory cigar".

    Hardly anything to brag about...unless you are Bballjay. Hell, Darko was even p'd off about it. Sad.

    Ben didn't do well against Shaq last year. So what. He's entitled to a bad series every now and then. Dude, you are not going to convince me that Ben is not scared of Shaq but he is afraid of Darko. lol.
     
  7. linwood

    linwood All-Star

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    I guess I'm in the minority too. I would jump up and cheer when he would make that 12 foot jumper. I loved watching his defender realize that he would now have to deal with Ben at both sides of the court.

    I think his game was coming along under Larr, and I was dissapointed that Flip didn't continue with the plan.
     
  8. hack

    hack First Round Draft Pick

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    I think you've got your answer to the question put to this guy above. Nice points you've made here.
     
  9. aurora

    aurora Bench Warmer

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    True. Not by any stretch of the imagination could any fair-minded fan think that Ben was clamouring to be an offensive star on the Pistons. A very lame argument that needs to bite the dust.

    Wrong. If that is the footnote it will have an asterisk.*

    Darko Milicic "human victory cigar for Detroit Pistons" *

    *#2 draft pick never given a chance to play
     
  10. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    I agree, thanks for the correction. :)
     
  11. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    ok. well i see why you aren't on the bench either. calling open jump shots for ben wallace you'll lose every game. post play? you see what happened in the miami series anytime ben got near the ball.

    i jumped and cheered when ben made jumpers too. it was more like a "no no YES" type of cheer but it happened. i cheer when he makes free throws too but that in no way means i'd call him to the free throw line to shoot technicals. he should stick to his strengths.

    i was more interested in watching darko develop than an old dog learning new tricks. it's so crazy that some people want to watch ben develop but have no patience to watch the # 2 pick develop.

    i disagree is very near ben defensively in the post. he can't get out and check people on the outside but in the post mcdyess holds his own and rebounds great. ben hasn't been dominant on defense in years. ben is the people's choice dpoy. bowen and artest aren't exactly liked around the league.

    ben doesn't have the tools to age well in the nba game. webber hasn't had knees for years. he's still effective on the court though. ben has maybe 2 years tops in him. he isn't a double digit mil a year player. chicago will regret this deal.

    he was involved in the offense as was pointed out to me earlier. he sets picks and gets offensive rebounds. ben wanted the rock so he could shoot some.

    he could never play shaq one on one. lb had the policy of let shaq get his. don't believe the hype. shaq would tire out after he had 20 pts. ben gave joe a verbal and then stuck it to the pistons. that's why i don't like him.

    you'll be able to checkout darko's postseason performance real soon. i agree though ben was great during the season. the playoffs was another story.

    not bragging about it. just stating fact that darko has won a championship. i think he was more p'd off about not getting the chance to contribute.

    he didn't do well against verajao either. two bad series in a row. ok. maybe it wasn't fear that kept ben from entering the game. it was maybe how it is when you beat your big brother at one on one and he doesn't want to play you anymore. he realizes you are better than him.
     
  12. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Looks like you flunked.
     
  13. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    This is called completely ignoring everything I mentioned about his offensive growth, role in the NBA Finals 2004, and his steady incline in offensive numbers last season.

    I'm shock to hear this bballjay. Absolutely shocked.

    Dice is an all-star, the world just hasn't seen it yet. Broken record with you buddy. Forever trying to convince the world that your frog can sing and dance. lol.

    I give Ben more than 2 years. I do agree that he is probably overpaid, but I don't think that Chicago will regret that deal. The champisonship credibility and lockerroom leadership Ben will provide will make them proud of this selection in my opinion. I guess time will tell.

    Wow, you really are a genious. So when Ben said he wanted to be involved in the offense more, he was talking about taking shots. Who new?

    No need. I watched every game and walked away more impressed with Ben than I ever had been. Noone shuts down Shaq, but he did a helluva job stopping Shaq when we needed him to. And he did it one on one.

    What's that I hear? Bball jay, I think you might actually be softening your stance a bit. Did you just call Ben great during the season. He was pretty good during that LA elimination game in the finals game too, huh. Jump shots and all.


    So, we are at agreement that he a did a little more than we did collectively to get that ring. Which means that his ring bears no revelance whatsoever in talking about his talent versus D. Wades. Thanks.


    Keep tellin' yourself that, bballjay. Shaq can't deflate Ben's confidence, but Darko can. Okay. lol!
     
  14. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    I must really be bored.

    Comeback NBA season. Soon!
     
  15. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    My favorite part is when anyone mentions Ben wanting to be more involved in the offense, it immediately turns into the Pistons feeding him in the post repeatedly like he was Dantley or McHale. Classic.
     
  16. Jackattaq

    Jackattaq First Round Draft Pick

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  17. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    The problem with your logic Jack is that with more touches, Ben shot a better FT %, and increased his scoring in the playoffs. And of course, the Pistons went further.

    Statistically, what you are saying is not true. Ben did become more efficient with more touches.

    And that's common knowledge to people who have played the game. You cannot establish a rhythm playing 40 minutes and taking 5 shots. You don't suddenly step up to the FT line and shoot 80%.

    The best free throw shooters have generally been volume scorers. Therein lies the truth about muscle memory and confidence.
     
  18. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    LMAO!

    I feel your pain accept....

    If horrible free throw shooters don't deserve touches Shaq, Baron Davis and Tim Duncan would never see the rock.

    I will say that it seems as if Ben's confidence with free throw shooting went further south as the coaching staff loss confidence in him making plays offensively. Obviously, we were watching two different teams the 2003-04 and 2004-05 season, because I saw a guy who was improving offensively. He was hitting that jump shot of his more consistently and making quick offensive moves to the basket. I think your account of his offensive woes is a bit lopsided. I'll admit that when he looked bad offensively, he looked horrible. But he did string together some good games and as a whole I saw obvious improvement. There is statistical evidence to back my claims.

    Personally, I don't think we have this conversation if the coach would have let Ben's offensive game continue to evolve. Ben does need to take responsibility for shooting 30% from the line. That's just embarassing. I think what you saw though was a player who has terrible offensive instincts, was working to rectify that problem and then had the opportunity snatched away. ..and he got bitter about it. So, what's left? A below average offensive player with no confidence in putting up the ball but wanting to get better. I think that situation is a product of bad coaching. Now, it is less likely that he will ever reach his offensive potential. Gotta give it to Larry, he got things out of these cast of characters that obviously most thought impossible. Speaks to his coaching ability. Most would have said that investing in Ben offensively was a huge waste of time. I guess Ben and Larry proved everyone wrong in the 2004 Finals.
     
  19. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    He didn't have to shoot the ball just be part of the offense. Pass him the ball. Let him make a decision...dunk or pass. he'll it ain't gonna kill anybody if he misses a shot or two. But when you have ben touching the ball you generally have better movement overall.
     
  20. Jackattaq

    Jackattaq First Round Draft Pick

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    FYI: During the 2003-2004 season BEN SHOT A CAREER HIGH OF 9.2 FGA per game, but shot ONLY 42.1 FG%. Ben also shot 49% from the FT line that year. He averaged 9.5 ppg in the TITLE year.

    This past season Ben shot 5.7 FGA per game. He also shot 51% from the Field. He had a 41.6 FT% and yet he still managed to score 7.3 ppg.

    So what we are seeing is that by giving Ben MORE TOUCHES he shots NINE PERCENTAGE POINTS LESS. (not too mention that anything SUB 45% is BAD FOR A BIGMAN). He was MORE EFFICIENT BY NOT TOUCHING THE BALL.

    I stand by my stance, YOU DON"T REWARD 30% FTers with MORE OFFENSIVE TOUCHES.

    Ben's numbers show that HE DIDN"T GET BETTER with more touches. He was better last year with LESS. 51% efficiency is HUGE compared to 42%.

    Some players just AREN'T OFFENSIVE PLAYERS, Ben is one of those guys.

    PS: the reason a bad FT SHOOTER LIKE SHAQ, TD or BARON DAVIS can get touches is because they can actually SCORE THE BALL WITHOUT FTs. When is the last time Ben caught the ball under the rim (a la SHAQ) and carried 2 defenders up while slamming the ball on their heads. Shaq can't be stopped under the hoop (thx to the refs letting him plow defenders away), all you have to do to Ben is FOUL him, he don't get AND 1's like Shaq can.
     

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