defense and morality

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by professor, Apr 25, 2006.

  1. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    Interesting because Laimbeer never worked on his offensive game outside of his comfort zone. According to the Franchise by Cameron Stauth Pistons management would get frustrated with Bill because he wouldn't work out or touch a ball during the offseason. He refused to work on any post moves, for example, never lifted weights. Some might call that lazy.

    Ben is the complete opposite...the quintessential hard worker.

    Off course Laimbeer gave 100 per cent every game on both ends of the court.

    My point, that apparently you missed, was that Maravich has received great acclaim...books written about him, a movie etc. for being a one dimensional player. Vince Carter receives acclaim in a similar way....I'm not saying they deserve it...I'm saying they get it.
  2. professor

    professor Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    i wanted to give this one more quick shot. i appreciate everybody's generosity in attempting to understand my incoherent rant.

    my basic question is: why do broadcasters explicitly give good defenders a free pass for their poor offense, but not give good offensive players a free pass for their defense?

    I do believe, to a point, that defense wins championships. But I think it would be more accurate to say that a well-rounded team that can score more than it lets the other team score wins championships.

    I don't believe that truly exceptional offensive players (not to be confused with those who score 30 a game -- of which, in any event, there were only three this season) are more common than truly exceptional defensive players.

    I do believe that offensive success depends on more things out of one's control than defensive success.

    I don't believe that good defense takes more effort than good offense.

    But I do believe that the effort put into good defense is more obviously visible on the floor during games than the effort put into good offense. And I certainly believe that the average broadcaster doesn't really know the game and doesn't think beyond the obvious, but misleading, appearance that Mr. Good D/Bad O is trying harder than Mr. Good O/Bad D.

    But even if that's so, then I have a new question: why value dogged effort over (apparently) graceful ease?

    It's to answer that question that I offered my wild and incomprehensible speculation in the first post. So I'll stop there before I start writing myself into a confused mess and hope that my questions make more sense now. :fingerscr
  3. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    rant redux, acid reflux, skip all the cheap shots, flip it to the be-nots...

    Offensive players get a free pass on their defense all the time. Nash doesn't defend (well) and he's the MVP. Ray Allen is an all-world shooter, and he's never shut anyone down. Vince Carter's idea of defense is grabbing his hamstring and looking towards the bench for a journeyman to shoulder his burden. Peja is a ghost most games and when he tries, he just makes it worst.

    When was the last time T-Mac locked up his man all game? Wade was absolutely terrorized by Michael Redd. Did Redd put the glove on anyone this season?

    Offensive players get a free pass too.

    It's the old stereotype.

    Possession receiver. Works hard, good hands, reliable, runs short routes.

    Deep threat. Breakaway speed. Touchdown maker.

    Why can't a deep threat be a possession receiver and likewise a possession receiver a deep threat?

    Ben and Bowen are the two hardest working defenders. They are lousy offensively. But Ron Artest? The best player in the NBA. He wins, he scores, he defends. Plus, it's only one or two more seasons until he shows up to games in a pink feather boa.

    [​IMG]
  4. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    also defenders get their free passes because good defense can create offense, but not the other way around
  5. professor

    professor Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    Okay Micro. They certainly do get a free pass in the sense that nobody demands that they play defense, and nobody criticizes them for not playing defense. So I've definitely got to give you that. But it helps me nail down my problem a little bit. Maybe if you give it one more try micro, my problem will go away entirely and i'll shut up about it.

    But here's the thing: when was the last time you heard a broadcaster say "Nash stops his man. One of the most creative and productive offensive players in the league, so any stops you get from him are a bonus!"?? (And don't tell me I'd hear that if he ever stops his man.)

    But I did hear just this of Bowen (after making a simple 15 foot jumper): "a jumper by bruce bowen! a great defensive player, so any points you get from him are a bonus!" And I've heard it countless times when Ben succeeds in keeping the ball of his foot, and his right foot off his left, and manages to make something other than a dunk.

    I'm not ragging on players for being one dimensional. I'm curious as to the source of what appears to me to be a slight discrepancy in the way one-dimensionality is treated (at least when expressed in the kinds of quotes I just mentioned). What is that difference about?
  6. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    I'm not a historian of the game but defense and Bball are kind of oxymorons. Offensive excellence is rewarded. Defensive excellence is respected but spurned and shunted. I've seen the game adjusted when defensive excellence becomes better than offensive. Ball threw the hoop is the current trend they want to sell. Not Raja Bell clothes lining kobe. Excellent D by the way. <):*(~]

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