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Delfino vs Evans Round 3

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Superstarov, Apr 1, 2006.

  1. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    I think FreshPrince is referring to initial reviews of Delfino by Coach Brown after his first stint of playing time with the Pistons last year. Larry was not impressed with Delfino's defense at all. Later we discovered that Delfino's defensive ineffectiveness had more to do with his injuries rather than effort and talent.
     
  2. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    Motown..I guess so but...we all knew Delfino was hurt last year. He had a stretch where he played a lot of minutes last March but then they decided he wasn't well enough to make the playoff roster. I don't think he earned much of a reputation either way last year to be honest because of the injury.

    Maybe a reputation as a complainer or malingerer but it was a wasted year as far as talent evaluation. I think this year in spots we have seen some great defense from Delfino...haven't seen that at all from Evans.
     
  3. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

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    His pre-draft profile said one thing, his play on the court said the total opposite. Even before the injury last year he was an attrocious defender. You obviously didn't pay attention. At least watch the games for pete sake!

    Even the beast defenders in the league get scored on. What? You think Bruce Bowen and Ron Artest have never had a point scored on them? Sure they have. In fact, they've been lit up plenty of times before. As has Lindsey. He has a couple times this year already.

    Carlos has a chance at being a Bowen/Artest level of defender. Anyone who can't see it obviously isn't paying attention (and needs to watch the games.... for pete sake :eyebrows:). He moves his feet extremely well. He is smart (won't get pump faked out of his shoes like the rest of our defenders). He's not afraid of a little contact. And he can just ride up in someones jersey forcing ugly shots or TOs.

    Obviously they aren't going to miss every shot even if they're tough, but he very rarely gives up good looks on the defensive end. Can't really say that for our other defenders. Tay/Rip tend to only like to play D if it's crunch time. And Lindsey is fantastic at grabbing steals and loose balls, but he gives up good looks fairly regularly. He's a different type of defender though.

    More often than not he has been our best defender on those bigger, more physical slashers (The Pierce, Carter, Wade's of the world). If he got more minutes, then maybe this would become more obvious to you.
     
  4. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    Ok I thought I was talking to a rational person, my bad. This would be like trying to teach a retard to appreciate Shakespeare and I'm just not up to it right now. I think I'd have to get drunk first.
     
  5. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    They both suck.

    basketbills, FreshPrince22 is mostly right about Delfino. But you know what? Screw Delfino. Is he getting a fair shake? No. Could he help if he were played? You bet. Is he the best defender on the team? Probably. Does he have untapped offensive potential? Maybe, maybe not. But that's all irrelevant.

    It's clear that Flip Saunders is not going to use Delfino in a capacity where he can best help the team, and that's the Pistons' loss, but due to the fantastic starting five, not a huge one. And luckily Joe Dumars signed Tony Delk, so Flip can play small(er)ball to rest Tayshaun Prince, for a very simple reason:

    Mo Evans is a bum. His game is garbage: spasmodic, undirected, blind and dumb energy. His offense is severely limited: he can't finish at the rim, nor can he shoot anything but the corner three, nor can he drive. His defense is unworthy of the Detroit uniform, and completely unacceptable for the playoffs. Some, including myself, have compared him to Darvin Ham, and for that I apologize to Darvin - he's worse. He's trash. He's useless. He needs to go - be deactivated, waived - before Flip is tempted to use him further.

    Tony Delk for reserve 3.
     
  6. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

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    Typical "ohh yea, well... uh.. you're stupid!" response from someone with no answers.

    Either way, AHB is right. He isn't going to get enough burn here to prove any of us right or wrong anyways, so it's pointless. I just hope Flip understands that Mo Evans is far from the answer. Neither Carlos or Mo can be relied on to score, but at least Carlos gives you 1 thing consistantly. That's more than I can say about Mo.
     
  7. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Delfino can wipe his arse with both hands... but it still stinks

    Ahb is going a little overboard on the Evans suckage meter also.
     
  8. max

    max All-Star

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    It has been boiling down to lately a question of who is not playing worse rather than better.

    This competition thing Flip has created has not helped either player. Just confuses them on when they will get the call.
     
  9. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    I don't think I am - and just to be clear, I don't think that Delfino is playing any more than a hair better than Evans.

    I just think that Evans is not an NBA-caliber player at this point, and definitely shouldn't be part of any playoff game that is in doubt. Delfino has potential, but should probably be shelved until next season, because he's useless, too. Delfino made some nice, smart passes today - good for him. That's not enough.

    I'm deeply disappointed in the entire situation, really: in Evans, for completely failing to live up to the "defensive stopper" line he was billed as, and for failing to contribute intelligently when he's in the game; in Delfino, for failing to contribute assertively when he's in the game; and in Flip, for generally being an idiot.

    Hopefully Joe Dumars can resolve the issue for Flip, or Flip can resolve the issue himself in next year's training camp, but right now I'm sick of the situation and I don't want to hear about either of them until one of
    them is both allowed to and makes himself produce on a significantly higher level than either is currently at. The level Delfino played consistently at earlier in the season would be fine. The level Evans played at sporadically, a handful of times throughout the season, would be fine.

    I just don't see that happening this season, so I've just taken the view that neither of them will matter in the playoffs, Tony Delk can take both their places, and the fight can be postponed until next season. That could make things slightly more difficult this season than they have to be, but not so much that we can't win a ring for Dice. And ultimately that's what it's about. I'm just disappointed that the situation came down to that (and whoever it was in the previous thread who said that Delfino would ask for a trade may well turn out right).
     
  10. linwood

    linwood All-Star

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    To me, the bench is clearly Dice, Hunter, Delk, Davis, and sometimes Evans and Delfino. Play these cats, in this order, and celebrate the championship.
     
  11. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

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    The problem is that that's 2 PGs and 2 PF/Cs. You need a swingman. The problem is that neither gets consistant minutes, so neither is going to give a consistant contribution. 4-5 minutes here and there is BS. Most players need to have 15+ minutes per game to get into the flow.
     
  12. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I tried to watch both Evans and Delfino last night against NOK, really concentrate on what they were doing. I guess the short answer is that neither was very impressive, both tending to fade and get lost on offense.

    Evans is a decent catch the ball - stand still - take a breath jump shooter. No better than Delfino in that situation as I see it though and probably less versatile. Close in Evans really seems clueless. Set him up perfectly and he can jam with the best, but force him into any kind of move, and the ball bounces wildly around and generally off the rim. He doesn't so much shoot the ball when he doesn't have a dunk, but just springs up and lets it go, letting his momentum from the jump more or less steer the ball in the direction of the hoop. (Man can sure get way up in the air though - ought to be blocking more shots than Delfino rather than less.)

    On the defensive end although I haven't seen that much from Delfino lately, but I have seen less from Evans, so Carlos is my guy.

    It's probably unfair to both to expect all that much from five or six minutes a game though. Especially since the offense deliberately moves away from both of them when they come in. But, that's the way it works on a team dominated by the starters. And that's the world they're both going to have to learn to perform in or it's out the door come next year.
     
  13. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    The problem I have is with some of you guys that you have to take everything to the extreme. You see some defensive talent from Delfino and next thing you know he is elevated in your mind to the next Bruce Bowen.

    What happens in forum land when you get folks with the rose colored glasses on is that there is a backlash to try to bring some sense of reality. Kind of like the Darko boys. They see him swish a few threes in warmups and their blood pressure goes up, their palms get sweaty and voila....in their minds the next Kevin Garnett has been created.

    Then the more rational folks on the forum get irritated with your delusions and next thing you know they start looking for all the bad things in a player they originally liked just to prove the man-lovers wrong.

    It's a viscious cycle. How about if we don't play that game with Delfino? Cut the crap. He is what he is. A guy with a lot of pword and hopefully a bright future. Don't make me hate him already by riding his jock.
     
  14. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    To be honest, I absolute loathe having to deconstruct one player in an argument to prove that another is worthy. I caught myself doing it last year with Hunter / Arroyo, and it made me feel bad. It is reasonable that both players have skill, potential, and flaws. And in some cases, the gap can be negligibile.

    If there is one word that I hate, it's "potential". Superstarov summed it up best when writing about a certain European big boy, "He has the potential, to have potential".

    4 years ago we weren't that excited about our youth. Jon Barry and Corliss captured our imagination. Would Hubert Davis recapture his NY Knicks form?

    Now the team is soooo much better, and we sweat the 8th man like a heroin junkie trapped overnight in a storm drain.
     
  15. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    I agree Micro. Maybe a ban on the pword would be nice...oh and take it out of my last post for me please.

    Any NBA player who is not a Rufus Henry type has the pword so it becomes meaningless. Chris Paul has the pword to become the next Isiah Thomas for example according to Fred McLeod. Isiah even says he is better than him.

    The less you see of a player the more pword he has. Andreas Glyniadakis was penciled into several lineup scenarios by one notorious lover of pword.
    Ratko Varda was loaded with pword. Pepe Sanchez was the official pword spokesman.

    NBA dinosaurs have used up their pword power...Dale Davis, Cliff robinson...no pword. If you are retired or dead, even if you were a star once, you have no pword....(think George Mikan)

    Irregardless of the vast popularity of pword I say ban it from the forum Micro.

    Make this forum pword free!
     
  16. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I believe you've said it before, but WE NEED PLAYOFFS!!! These regular season fixes are just not getting it done.
     
  17. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    That sums it up nicely... there's also a defense mechanism for the players that are constantly slammed because he's eating into the pet player's PT (who likewise has proven very little).

    It seems like the backup SF minutes are somewhat being evenly distributed now (Evans/Delfino)... I'm ok with Mo playing in the first half of games and Delfino the 2nd half... they can play equal minutes against the same competition... this should be a decent gage for the remaining games.
    At this point there's still not enough data... the real decision will be for next year... my guess is that neither player makes the grade and we have a more seasoned SF next season... which would make all of these keystrokes unnecessary once again (see Darko).
     
  18. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    What I like is that both of these guys can hit the open 3 point shot and are both good in the open court. And they are both young.

    The one thing about Delfino is that his shot LOOKS so good, that you get the feeling that he could be a great shooter if he got more attempts on a more consistent basis. Evans' shot looks kind of bad, but it goes in.

    Delfino "hands" rating= 10.9/ Rebounding rating= 16.4
    Mo Evans = 10.8/ Rebounding= 15.4

    Pretty similar performance stats-wise.
     
  19. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    Mo "Mayhem" Evans is the perfect bench player!!

    ABH, how dare you come down so hard on JDs hand picked bench player! Are you trying to ruin his confidence?
    Do you know why he is the perfect bench player? Cause nobodies gonna want him, he can stay on the bench for years like Dyess does now. And the salarys are perfect. Were as someone will take a chance on Fino. We all think Fino is gone next year if he has a good playoff series. It seems Fino is getting some of the Darko treatment...you want 'im you develope 'im.
    ...I mean players and coaches from other teams gotta be thinking..."this is a Piston? After watching how smooth Rip, CB and Tay are, then Mo comes in, gooning it up, dribbling all crazy, gorilla at the rim. They're probably laughing and equally confused. I mean the starters can't be threatened by him, so they like him. I mean he doen't even have a specific roll to play, Flip just turns him loose and looks away.
    ...And I thought you knew all about bball. You don't understand Mayhem.
     
  20. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    I don't agree if they continue on their recent trend. Both of them are regressing, and neither is contributing to the team. We don't have time to revive their careers this season, so I think it would be better for the team to shelve them both and work some of the players Flip trusts more into larger roles in the rotation. That's unfortunate, but the time to take a gauge and create a fixed rotation is nearly a third of a year past us. Flip's simply screwed the pooch on this one, and he doesn't have time to fix his mistake.

    As for the "p-word", the potential of either one isn't really relevant except as a sort of straw man to rally his detractors. At the beginning of the year, did Delfino have the potential to be a 6MOTY type player? Definitely. But the reality is that he's not anywhere near that level now - and believe me, I'm not trying to "deconstruct" Evans to elevate Delfino, because I believe that Delfino's pretty much hit rock bottom. I have come to genuinely loathe watching Mo Evans play for reasons that have nothing to do with Carlos Delfino, starting with his stupidity and ending with his general ineptness. Now, I believe that Flip should be given another chance to do something with Delfino next season not because of Delfino's potential future, but because of his real past. But it is far past time to do anything with Delfino now, and the sheer inconsistency of the 28-year-old Maurice Evans - the complete randomness of his "flashes", the extreme limitations, the general lack of productiveness - he is nothing but wasted "potential", and should be jettisoned ASAP. Mo's history, not the potential Joe D. tried to sell when he was signed, tells me that he's worthy of being no more than a 10th-12th man on a good team, and making him any more than that is dangerous. (And really, that's Flip's fault more than Evans's. Fennis Dembo didn't hurt the Bad Boys by being stupid and inept; if he were forced to fill VJ or Worm's shoes by Daddy Rich, though, he might well have done considerable harm)

    The problem I have with basketbills' point of view is that in his rush to consider himself "rational" and anyone outside of his comfort zone of complacency "deluded", he ignores the reality of the situation. And the reality is, whether he likes it or wants to consider it or not, that Carlos Delfino is a fantastic defensive player, and if he were to become slightly more dedicated, he would be every bit as good as Bruce Bowen, not that Bowen is even anything particularly unique or special in the history of defensive stoppers. That's not rose-colored-glasses - that's not extrapolation, or even a large enough step to be considered "potential", because stretches of contribution at that level have already occurred this season several times. The athleticism and strength, anticipation and positioning, psychology and understanding, are already there. That's reality, and trying to conflate this situation with the Milicic situation - where nothing but shotblocking and passing were even remotely "already there", and many important aspects were completely missing - flies in the face of rationality. If any viewpoint that disagrees with your own - not expressed by anyone who even matters, but by another internet commentator - makes you hate a player, you're blindly irrational on this matter, friend. There's no need to grandstand - there's no such thing as "neutral, purely rational, and unbiased". (This sample of what discussion would be like if "the p-word" was banned has been brought to you by Rock Financial. Call 1-800-333-ROCK for all your home financing needs.:ohwell:)

    But, as I said, the time to take advantage of those possibilities is past us, and max might be right when he says that Flip has lost both of them. As dba says, the playoffs are upon us, and it's time to gather what we have and wrap up final preparations instead of trying to rebuild bridges to what we had and do what should have been done in training camp. Neither of them is going to be a 7th or 8th man in the playoffs this year.
     

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