Did Joe actually "over-stayed" the course?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by mikhail1973, Jul 21, 2009.

  1. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2007
    Messages:
    9,774
    Likes Received:
    545
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Kiev - Farmington Hills, MI - Santa Clara, CA
    Here's an opinion:

    There are some interesting points here. At the same time while many of us agree that Joe should have made some moves, some think that he was correct staying with the "core", maybe a little too long, but all in all he got a lot out of the team.
    Now, I am not sure that Carter is a franchise-changing player, but there may have been other opportunities along the way including both draft and trades to make this a more successful run.
    Now, these past couple of years Joe made some significant changes, even though some think that he hasn't done anything, or has made the team worse. It is a different team, that's for sure. Is it better? Maybe. For sure it couldn't be worse than last year's team. How good it can be depends on Joe's future moves and player development of the all the young talent that Joe's accumulated.
     
  2. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,605
    Likes Received:
    2,475
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    Joe is a conservative GM. He only takes calculated risks in his favour.

    It has its ups and downs, but when we are on top, he's less likely to blow up a good team, and when he is down, he will take deliberate steps.
     
  3. NTC

    NTC First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2006
    Messages:
    234
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Brisbane
    I think he did the right thing, I think you can afford to let the team run its course if you're playing good "team basketball", and winning alot of games like we had.

    6 consecutive ECF appearances is nothing to baulk at by any means, that alone goes to prove that the right formula was there, maybe it just wasn't executed as well as it should've been (after 2004).
     
  4. max

    max All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    7,432
    Likes Received:
    429
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    my bunker in the Carribbean
    Made sense until the Vince Carter part. When he was with the Nets they all kept predicting great things and it never happened.

    Some are saying that he did not wait long enough. Won 59 games the year before the re-tooling officially began. Webber was a late season throw in one year. I don't believe most expected it to go beyond that.
     
  5. webz

    webz All-Star Snub Administrator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    3,483
    Likes Received:
    776
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Realistically, all he had to do was draft Melo, Bosh or Wade (all of which are now considered franchise players) instead of Darko and we would have had our Franchise player. That, was his one big mistake.
     
  6. Stun

    Stun First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2009
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kedainiai
    Yes thats the main move Joe failed to do.But I don't blame Joe,becouse it's hard to know what to do when you win and you are so close to the finals.You don't want to trade your main guys.But come on people,if Boston doesn't win next year we will be the most successful team in east this decade.
     
  7. HarryFWong

    HarryFWong First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    179
    Likes Received:
    0
    this stuff is just so absurd. so what exactly does "staying the course" mean? winning a championship EVERY year? going to the NBA Finals EVERY year? only 2 teams can make the finals, and only 1 can win.

    SO SOMEBODY PLEASE TELL ME, exactly WHICH TEAM in the NBA has been doing all the right things over the past 10 years? The Spurs won some championships, the Lakers won some. But I'm pretty sure that they also had several early exits as well, so i guess they didn't exactly "stay the course" now did they?

    Howcome anything less than perfection is considered failure? there are 30 teams in the NBA and we can only name 2 teams in the past decade that you could argue had greater overall success than the Pistons. so that's top 10% right there.


    any given year you might have let's say 6 or 8 teams that have a legitimate shot to make some noise. if you're one of the 6 teams, assuming you all had an equal chance that would man a 17% chance of winning a championship. you could have a "contending team" EVERY YEAR but you still need a little luck to get deep into the playoffs consistently.

    howcome nobody criticizes the red wings for not winning every year? or the spurs? or the lakers or celtics or whoever the hell else there is? the patriots, the YANKEES???! i guess Jordan's bulls were one of the few major sports teams in the last 2 decades that successfully "stayed the course."

    lastly, i heard this guy at the casino whining about the pistons this past year, and i said look man, how can you ever appreciate a win if you never suffer defeat? he said it's all about 'dominance'. well tell me, mr. macho dominating man, why the hell are you whining like a little girl and abandoning your team just because it's losing right now?... we'll see them bandwagon ass cats come may..(of uhh 2012?)

    [[[ps, if you don't like joe dumars as gm, tell me should be hired instead? and how many gm's out there have consistently done better? i'm not arguing that dumars is any genius, but which gm IS the genius? RC buford has been brilliant. but i havent seen him getting in done the last couple of years either]]]
     
  8. hlbimage

    hlbimage First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2007
    Messages:
    218
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Maryland
    DUUUHHH ? :pound:
     
  9. Blue

    Blue First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    0
    When Joe came on the TV last summer and said "everyone is in play", it kind of implied to me that everyone was not in play in the prior years. It seemed that he had made his core "untouchable". Maybe he did listen to offers for his guys, but since I don't have access to the back room, I am going on my perceptions.

    As a result of this, I think a culture of complacency was born because the core guys were never really on the hot seat. It wasn't so much that he stayed with his core, but more that he thumbed his nose at the notion of entertaining a trade, and thus IMO holding them accountable.
     
  10. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,821
    Likes Received:
    2,960
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    I'm a Dumars supporter. He hasn't been perfect but he's been pretty good since he's held the position of GM. I don't think he "over stayed the course" as much as I feel that he failed to add pieces to help him more effectively navigate the waters.

    Would it really have brought down the whole house of cards to spend the freaking full-MLE on one guy during the course of an off-season. -...jeeez!

    Oh, and Flip was the wrong guy at the wrong time.
     
  11. round

    round All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    375
    Location:
    Michigan/Glasgow
    agree with everything you said, but would add... Because Joe doesn't show any of his cards till he plays them I wonder if he did reach out to different players over the years but players didn't want to come here because they knew they were behind players that were going to get close to 40 mins a night.

    But yea, if we could have gotten that one 2/3 spark off the bench betwen 05-07 I think we have one or two more final shots atleast.
     
  12. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2006
    Messages:
    12,306
    Likes Received:
    1,503
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lake Elmo
    I'm also a Dumars supporter. I also agree with the complacency theory. With coaches changing all the time, the players really didn't feel the need to be on their game 100%. Only if the players woulda just shut up and played for Flip.:stirthepot:
     
  13. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,605
    Likes Received:
    2,475
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    Joe's biggest strength is his biggest weakness. He's very in touch with the players but at the same time, I think he is closer than the coach to the players, and traditionally that is not the role of the GM. The hierarchy is usually bench => starters => captain => coach => GM.

    The GM is meant to support the coach, and collaborate with the coach on how to improve the team or handle problems, instead of having an open door policy for the players to bypass the coach altogether.

    We'll see how attached to the players he is by how he handles Rip and Tay. This is a fresh start for them if they stay, it will say a lot about their character and his faith in them, if they can provide leadership along the way.

    I also think that mistake made him gun shy.
     
  14. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,605
    Likes Received:
    2,475
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    I wasn't a Flip fan, it is hard to follow LB who I really liked.

    But I now see what Flip did, and I can appreciate it.

    If the players had shut up and dug a little deeper, just another 2 or 3%, they might have two more titles. They were that close. LB squeezed it out of them in 05 to get past Miami, and almost got the repeat with the Spurs. That year sucked because we didn't win, but as a fan, I honestly felt they couldn't have done any more. Sure folks will nit-pick small stuff, and I can too, but I really felt like that was a blood and guts battle and we came up just a little short in the end.

    I love the Pistons and now that there is a turnover I feel comfortable saying that the last couple years have been very hard for me to watch. Talented teams with no heart. Guys living on their reputations.

    So when someone says 39 wins, if it is 39 wins of watching bonds form, and guys learn to trust each other, if it is 39 wins of guys diving for loose balls and fighting to the final buzzer, then I am totally pumped up about 39 wins.

    Because I would rather watch a team that cares and wants it, fight and lose than watch a team good enough to win it all, treat it with disrespect.
     
  15. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2006
    Messages:
    12,306
    Likes Received:
    1,503
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lake Elmo

    Thanks Roscoe...It hurt to see the great fall last season. It hurt just as bad to see players not making the most of their situation the previous years.
     
  16. hitafreethrow

    hitafreethrow Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2009
    Messages:
    1,139
    Likes Received:
    94
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Keweenaw
    I agree 100% with Roscoe, therefore I I can't watch Rip complain to the refs for another season. That might break my will.
     
  17. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,821
    Likes Received:
    2,960
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    My sentiments exactly!
    You are a good person.
     
  18. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,214
    Likes Received:
    196
    I totally agree about the Darko pick but also understand why Joe made that pick. Was it a wrong pick though.

    A criticism is that the team didn't spend when the iron was hot in 2005 especially.

    As far as going too long, maybe a year too long but that year, 2008, the team went to the conference finals. So, maybe not.

    I totally disagree with those who still think we could have won it last year with a better coach or that if we kept the team in tact, the Pistons were still contenders. The Pistons were headed to the lottery.

    Six years was great and if Joe can rebuild on the fly as he seems to be doing, well, that is off the charts.
     
  19. hitafreethrow

    hitafreethrow Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2009
    Messages:
    1,139
    Likes Received:
    94
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Keweenaw
    lapiston - I always like to read your point of view. Heard you a few times in the Podshow and really enjoyed listening to what you were thinking.
     
  20. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2007
    Messages:
    9,774
    Likes Received:
    545
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Kiev - Farmington Hills, MI - Santa Clara, CA
    Good points here, except I disagree that the team was heading to the lottery. They would've been good for the 2nd round or the conference finals, especially if they could've played Magic. I'd say as long as they wouldn't have played Cavs, they could've gone to the finals. But, anyhow it is all water under the bridge at this point. We have young talented team, and lets hope it develops along the line of the Joe's Pistons version 1.
     

Share This Page