Did Joe actually "over-stayed" the course?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by mikhail1973, Jul 21, 2009.

  1. Latinoking90

    Latinoking90 Bench Warmer

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    It sure seemed that he over-stayed the course, because the team didn't win at least another championship.

    But looking back at that dominate era, did anyone seriously think of trade Chauncey for Capp Spayce? No. The Pistons were still contenders.

    It's easy to say that over-stayed the course, but he didn't.
  2. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    Thanks for your support. I enjoyed being on the show.
  3. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    Agree, Low, Flip wasn't the right hire. He actually learned on the job form year to year. But not sure the Pistons would have gotten that second title. They should have beat the Cavs in 2007 but I think they would have lost to the Spurs that year.

    My main "I wish" was that the organization kept the pressure after 2004 and added some quality to the roster even if it meant going slightly over the cap. Then, maybe another ship.

    Actually, 2005 is the closest thing to winning it all without doing so. It is just tough to repeat now. If Shaq stays in the West, the Pistons cruise out of the east and win in 2005. The only team to repeat (back to back) this decade was the Shaq-Lakers and I attribute that to Shaq. Shaq in his prime was unguardable.
  4. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Pretty good thread... enjoyed the points/counters.
    It's tough to blame Joe for "one more try" with the with the fellas that had proven results... he stated it best when he compared the BBoys legacy ending knowing that it was too late to make the right deals... Generally I think he's done well with his salary & draft position... so far this year the lack of considering the defense side of the spectrum will lead to a less than successful season (baring an unforseen move for an intimidator).

    IMO Flip was a solid tactician... who did not get enough credit for a good defensive team that was lacking defensive talent... however he seriously lacked motivation and spinehood (word on the fly :^)
    His rotations will forever be a point of contention (did N.E.1 else get great results from the guys that were supposedly cheated?)
    Joe thought that MC would give him the hardnosed assistant to get the vets motivated... there was nobody that could motivate Sheed (except when he was in a contract year)... Billups spent every playoff season injured... and Tay is what he is (a good but not great late draft pick)...

    IMO the talent overachieved and we shouldn't have had such lofty expectations.
  5. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    And a very good Coda by you.
  6. brofmfa

    brofmfa Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    Sometimes, people need lots of should'a, could'a, would'a to feed their family.
  7. pistonsloyalist

    pistonsloyalist First Round Draft Pick

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    I think the loss of Larry Brown was critical. He was the perfect coach for this team and really made the team greater than the sum of its parts. He truly made this unit play as a team. Following the loss to Miami in 2006 ECF, after the 35 and 5 (or was it 36 and 5) start in the regular season, and the departure of Ben, I think Joe really needed to make some significant changes while the trade value of his core was still high. I think that loss to Miami should have been the signal to start making changes, because the Pistons were clearly outplayed in that series. In addition, Tay was still regarded as an all-star player and an outstanding defender. And Rip was seen also seen as an all-star and a contemporary version of Reggie Miller. The stock of both players has gone down since then, and they will not command in trade value anything near what they would have commanded. I think that in 06, 07 and even up to 08, Joe truly overrated his core, based on the 04 and 05 seasons, and did not understand the unique way in which LB was able to make that core play better than they really were in those two years.
  8. 2Tough4You

    2Tough4You Bench Warmer

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    It was 37-5.
  9. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    It's always easy to talk in the hindsight. But when you are the "contender" the itch is there to keep the good thing going.
  10. Nemo

    Nemo Pun Master Forum Donor

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  11. Kidstealth

    Kidstealth First Round Draft Pick

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    I think Joe was actually stuck between transitions. There was the core he had, which had won it all, to not make him not want to change anything, and then the fact the core was getting older and seemed to be declining. Does he blow up the team or just get the pieces for one last hurrah?

    I think that is what he was thinking, and then after that run last year, he decided it had to change. He got rid of Billups where we had depth, and bought a lot of cap space.

    So I think he thought the team could hold it together perform last year, and then they lost in the finals, then this year the hold overs showed they can't hold it together and aren't hungry.

    It had to be done, but I think Joe held out hope that some of the team would show some effort, outside of the young guys and the bench. It didn't happen. It seemed as if we wasted their energy every time. I remember in game 1 this year, Kwame just being crazy, getting offensive boards, getting his shots, just that spark. What happened? Nothing. None of the regulars really fed off that energy. Someone also tried to provide that spark, but the battery was dead. I never saw such lax rebounding and boxing out.

    Rasheed gone, good. Billups wasn't a problem, but we needed to move on, and that trade has left us a lot of money. Plus the team would never fire under Billups, because of the player he was, and because the tempo ran threw him. He was the switch. Hamilton will hopefully be gone as well. Tay, I wish was gone. I'll give him a pass this year in the playoffs because you could see the guy limping, wincing, barely able to run, and wasn't subbed out. I just him as having peaked and would like to see us get moving forward.

    Joe was just stuck between fully replacing, partially replacing, or trying to upgrade the team. I think he opted for trying to upgrade until the ECF last year, and then realized that he needed a new engine.
  12. 2Tough4You

    2Tough4You Bench Warmer

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    I know. I remember thinking there was No Way we were gonna lose in 2006... that team was just so dominant through the first half of the season. We were on our way to 70 wins and then...

    You could start to see the signs of vulnerability towards the end of the regular season (losing 3 of the last 4 games) and definitely in the second round against the Cavs, but I kinda just ignored it because 2006 was our year!! It was supposed to be, anyway...
  13. max

    max All-Star

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    That may have been a good time to see what kind of trades could be made. Maybe he did and there was nothing out there. What did he do? Replaced Ben Wallace with Nazir Mohamed and called Flip Murray the next Vinnie Johnson.
  14. TWOTIMESRALPHI

    TWOTIMESRALPHI Team Captain 3x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    JoeD was in a loose- loose- situation. If he had broken up the core earlier, everyone would have been bashing him for doing so because they could've won it all on or two times more. The thing he did lets other bash him for not recognizing the signs of time. So, anyhow, whatever he would have done would've been wrong. He probably should've rejuvenated the team when Big Ben left. RIP and Tay probably both hat more value back than. But it's pure speculation. At least it seems like Joe managed to keep the team from crappy seasons with less then 20 wins for a long time to come. Yet, he has to prove that he can build a championship team once more and that he wasn't just lucky the first time.
  15. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Very good post, merc!

    And he could fly.

    You are a good person.
  16. raxrets

    raxrets Team Captain

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    Joe and his fab5: It is like USA in Iraq: damned if you do, damned if you don't.
  17. pistonsloyalist

    pistonsloyalist First Round Draft Pick

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    We started 37 and 5 (as you pointed out) and finished 64 and 18. So we went 27 and 13 in the second half of the season, which is good, but quite a falloff from the first half. Miami only finished 52 and 30 that season, but my recollection is that they had a middling first half and a great second half of the season. It seems like we peaked in 06 at the all star break, when (if I recall correctly) we had four players in the all star game. In any event, the Pistons showed in the conference semis (when they had some difficulty with a one-man Cleveland team) and the conference finals (when they lost to Miami) that they were not the team we thought they were in the first half.

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