Do we even miss Darko and Arroyo?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by roscoe36, Mar 30, 2006.

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  1. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    BBall,
    The problem with this theory (Darko would have stayed) is the financial sacrifice DMC would have had to make...
    He may be dumb but he's not stupid :P
     
  2. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    aside from all of your other arguments which are think are full of bunk and a stretch at best, this is why i can't take you seriously.
     
  3. TWOTIMESRALPHI

    TWOTIMESRALPHI Team Captain 3x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    this far, you haven't been able to tell us why you don't think Ben's showing signs of age. jay made a good point on Ben relying on his fitness more than any other player since he has not the best skills on shooting, passing and post- up play. If he gets injured, he wouldn't be able to recover since he has no skills to rely on. Though he is the heart and soul of the team, fans have to accept that signing him for a long- term contract and good money is risky.
     
  4. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Ok Ralphi, it's on...

    I think he has. Conditioning, training regimen, ability to play with pain, he's a superb physical specimen.

    Well wouldn't his fitness give him an edge in the battle against age? Ben is a good passer. He's in his prime, not in a decline yet. The changes in his stats have as much to do with the new defensive and offensive philosphies in Detroit as any other factor. How many guys at 31 years of age can go out and grab 22 boards, 75 games into the season?

    There is no risk. You have to look bigger picture, beyond the court even. By all accounts, Ben is an inspiration in the training room, a blood and guts leader. We have another blood and guts leader in Detroit, one who is recovering from a career of beatings. His name is Steve Yzerman. Yeah, he's not the player he was in his prime, but he's a valuable asset many teams would covet.

    There is also the fact that Ben is Detroit basketball. He's defined the last 5 years. A franchise player. A lot of goodwill and marketing value there.
     
  5. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    and you haven't been able to tell us why you think he IS showing signs of age.
     
  6. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    tay signed for less why wouldn't dmc? ben is going to sign for less. chauncey is going to sign for less. sheed signed for less. i know tay is the only young player out of those named but i still think dmc would have stayed.
    There is risk. i think ben is going to hurt the development of our young bigs. he's already been semi responsible for 2 young bigs leaving the team. i also don't think ben will be willing to relinquish his starting role as easily as people think. ben will want to play even when his stats and contribution don't warrant it. signing ben to a long term contract will hinder us from bringing in young big men which is the area that the pistons will lose talent the fastest. intangible's will only carry you so far.

    i think in terms of fan base. i think they were ready to embrace darko as the future of the franchise if he had been handled right. been doesn't have much marketing value outside of detroit (no shoe contract).
    yes. his fitness does give him an edge but time waits for no one. it will eventually catch up to him. i'm betting at 33 instead of 35. yes. but ben often drops 6 rebound games now that he is 31. young big men are also going off offensively more often than it used to happen. that's why i think of him declining because young bigs are dogging him.
     
  7. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I don't think he wouldn't have stayed. Look at the contract Dalembert (uses same agent) got based on one decent year.

    Rebounds are tangible. One of the all-time great shot blockers, that's not intangible. And winning, commitment to conditioning, those aren't intangible. Ben's not the "intangibles" guy. He's a worker and a competitor. I just realized I started this thread about Darko and Arroyo. GEEZ.

    Have you seen the kids wearing Ben afros at opposing team's arenas? In case you haven't noticed, the Pistons are a travelling rock show, and Ben is the front man. Chauncey is the virtuoso guitarist, Rip plays rhythm, Sheed holds down the bass and Tay syncopates the smooth beats. Night after night, the Pistons draw more of their fans on the road than the home team. Dwyane Wade and LeBron James don't do that. And they are light years ahead of Darko.

    No shoe deal. You gotta be kidding me. Jamal Crawford has a shoe deal. You telling me he is a bigger star in China than Ben Wallace? I don't think so.

    Time catches up to everyone man. Young big men are going off against everyone. Zach Randolph, Elton Brand, these are all good players. But it's nice to see someone like Ben play Shaq one on one as well as anyone in the league, and give Dirk Nowitzki fits. Oh, and he seems to play Yao pretty good too.

    You set an impossibly high standard for Ben to reach, and then try to sell that Darko "probably" would reach that standard. It's your opinion, but you don't apply the criteria fairly. When Darko can be a DPOY candidate, in the rebound hunt AND lead his team in blocks while contending for a championship, we can revisit this topic. Until then, it's crazy. Like comparing Bill Wennington to Wilt Chamberlain.
     
  8. tpaPistonFan

    tpaPistonFan First Round Draft Pick

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    Now that Orlando is in the playoff hunt you will notice that the minutes of both Darko and Arroyo are shrinking.. Actually Arroyo didn't play a minute last night. As for Darko he did get 18 minutes, but in all fairness the Magic only have Darko as a true C/PF back up (unless you count Outlaw and I hope you don't).


    The point I am making is that Darko's time will suffer now that the team he plays on is in contention of a playoff spot. Based on that it should make all the sense in the world of why Darko didn't play while in Detroit.


    I also want to point out one thing. If you look at the minutes played by every other all star player in the league (2006 all star game) you will notice that they play as much or more than the Pistons starting 5. Keep in mind that 4 of the starting 5 were all stars. If any other team had that amount of all stars they too wouldn't be giving many minutes to their bench.

    I think a lot of you forget how good the Pistons are!! Okur who was the 9th or 10th man on this team has moved on to become an excellent player. Darko was the 12th man and looks like he will be a very good player. The point. We have talent in the form of youth and because of our unique situation we have to say good bye to some of them. Eventually, the youth that stays will get their chance and succeed....


    I would like to leave you all with 1 last thing:
    Arguing over the internet is like winning at the special Olympics, at the end of the day you are still retarded!!!
     
  9. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    So if you argue in person, does that make you smarter?
     
  10. TWOTIMESRALPHI

    TWOTIMESRALPHI Team Captain 3x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Compared to what? Sure, he's not as bad as the likes of Kaman, but also no Divac. He's average, not good- Shaq is a good passer, for instance.
    As already pointed out;
    - young bigs tend to have career nights against him- what surely has something to do with them being a little extra motivated to go up against a 3x DPOY
    - he is having these 6 rebounds- nights he hasn't had before
    - sometimes he isn't blocking even one shot more often than ever
    I'm not looking at the stats- I think if the Ben of today played with the same team he did 3,4 years ago, the same coach, he'd avg. about 13 rebs and 3 blocks. But this season, he gets more tired during the long stretches. In the past, it looked like he could play 82 games in 82 days without getting tired.
    He was- but with the new more offensive- orientated Pistons, it seems like he has lost that status a lil' bit. You could see this as he complained about his offensive involvement or as he refused to enter the game. The Pistons have shown this season that they are more than just a defense team. That they have 4 legitimate scorers in their starting 5. Another thing reflecting his anger with him loosing his status as the defensive monster in a defensive- minded team is the increase of his free throw %.
    LB gave him the illusion of becoming a player with an offensive output like, let's say, PJ Brown or Mutombo had- unfortunately, even this is too much for him. But he can change the game with his defense. I hope he can go back to his roots and realize how important it is though the Pistons are not an defensive team only anymore.
     
  11. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Dude, Darko played almost the entire 4th quarter in crunch time last night. He had 3 blocks that thwarted Toronto's comeback attempt. Just because they decrease his minutes when they are in the playoff hunt doesn't mean that they should. He still leads their team in +/-, has the highest FG%, and is a huge reason why they are in the hunt to begin with. Arroyo's time decreased because he has an injury.

    The Magic haven't lost at home since February and are on a 10-1 streak right now! You don't think it is coincidental that is corresponds to a certain trade they made?
     
  12. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    Yeah..getting rid of Steve Francis was the best thing the Magic could have done. Addition by subtraction.

    To a smaller extent even the addition of Darko has probably helped.
     
  13. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    It is hard to explain through stats. But if you watch the games, it becomes obvious that Darko is having a huge impact. He is not grabbing rebounds when Howard is in there the same way that Sheed does it when Ben is in. He isn't scoring many points because he only shoots 6 shots per game.

    What he is doing is intimidating in the paint BIG time, shutting down the man that he guards, and providing a post presence. I've never seen a guy set so many screens and post up almost every possession. He is getting a lot of points in the post and passing out of the post very well. These aren't resulting in a lot of assists because they are pass-pass plays while the defense plays catch up. Most of the fouls he commits are on plays where he is helping someone out that got beat.

    This is why +/- is a good indicator of true value. It is why Tayshaun and Ben have such good +/- stats even when they seem to be having quiet games.
     
  14. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    I think it depends on the camera angles too.
     
  15. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    Micro, if you really want your balls busted keep saying Bill W. to Wilt about Darko, that's a very low blow.
    As for the band : I got BBen on drums or bass and back up vocals, CB on lead vocals [and the girls just fainting], Rip on lead guitar, Sheed on drums or bass and back up vocals, Tay on keyboards and Dyess as the guy that runs around waving his arms and stoking up the fans.
    Buckets on rythm guitar.
    ...If BBen is the fitness king he should go until he is 35 or 36. Let's not cheat him of that.
     
  16. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    Seeing a white guy take your minutes will bring out the very best in the black teammates. If Hill can't get 45 wins from that team next year- good night sweet prince.
     
  17. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    We really don't miss either one of them at this time. We will only second guess the trade of Arroyo if Delk and Hunter just happen to go down before the playoffs begin.

    Darko is a different story. His loss will be long range. He would have only helped in the playoffs this year, if he had been given more run time the past 2.5 years. Do you blame Darko or Larry Brown for this? He could have played 8-10 minutes this year and last if the two coaches had the guts to throw him in there and hurt the egoes of the susperstars. But according to rumour, he wasn't ready to play and had problems in practice. No use of letting that raw talent waste on a bench where you had the Wallaces, Dice and Prince so Joe did him a favor buy letting him go. The only problem I had with the deal was settling for a 2007 draft choice instead one this year or demanding Jameer Nelson in the trade too. :frusty:
     
  18. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    Agreed Dre, Darko was a 2, I would have settled for a 1-4. In any year. Anyway we won't be using the guy until 2010-2011. Or an injury.
     
  19. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    If you got a problem with Bill Wennington's greatness, you are suffering from too much sun. Bill's one of the greatest Canadian big men, a guy with a substantial international and professional legacy. Even bigger than Todd McCulloch.

    Darko wishes he could be Bill Wennington. Meanwhile, y'all inflate him to Moses Malone proportions. PUSHAW!

    Brother TFD, I don't like your lineup. Reminds me of Smashmouth or some band where no one recognizes anybody but the singer. I was thinking Guns'N Roses or the Rolling Stones. Everyone knows Charlie Watts and Keith Richards. Everyone knows Slash and Duff McKeegan.

    Detroit, it's a 5 man show and it's sold out for the remainder of the season. Maybe you can catch it on PPV.
     
  20. lazyberbs

    lazyberbs First Round Draft Pick

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    Man, bbills, now don't go so far off the deep end. You might wind up saying something we might construe as support for "him".:eyebrows: :nod: :ohwell: :doh: .

    The weather up here in mid-Michigan still sucks, just like every year so far. I forgot just how dreary it is.
     
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