Dressing the dogs..

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by G-man, Oct 31, 2005.

  1. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    Bills I hear ya, wear what you wanna wear, cool. I don't like corporate conforming, brown nose, arse kissers that tyr and dress their way to the top with a fake smile or in the case of the ladies...sexy legs and short skirts. By no means do I feel like corporate norms should be allowed to dictate anyway of life. My point is to illustrate that this era is on some new stuff if ever. There's nothing wrong with being comfortable, but it's leaving a whole group of people in a world where they don't even know how to tie a TIE.

    The NBA is basically full of 20 sumthin year old brotha's that impact the trends in mainstream culture, why not use that power effectively. This is a chance for them to step up and look professional, presentable and respectable and show others that are their age and from their old neighborhoods a new way to move and groove in life, just like Jay-Z did by getting a whole mass of folk in the hood to throw out the throw backs and sport a button up french cuff shirt (even though very few of them actually button up the shirts).

    Being young and black you have a mountain of stereotypes thrown upon you and ALWAYS looking like you just stepped off of a rap video shoot NEVER helps your case.
  2. Mad Hatter

    Mad Hatter First Round Draft Pick

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    Dress Mess

    This whole issue is much a-do about nothing!:mad:

    I say let the players wear whatever they want. Last time I checked the mandatory dress code was gym shoes, socks, shorts and a jersey with a number on it. That's what they wear when "on the job." Let GM's insitute an "inactive dress code" for their individual club if they feel their team's image needs a boost. But most of them know that dressed up inactive players contribute ziltch to a team's image.

    And what the hell is "proper attire" while watching a basketball game anyway? How many fans (if they ain't runnin late) go to the game dressed "business casual?" Much less in a suite and tie! What about cameramen? Each player has their own standards of dress whether someone else likes it or not. So what! If that player's momma don't mind seein him dressed "hip-hop" so what? It's all about home training.

    This sounds like either Stern is on a power trip or he ain't got enough to keep busy. How about beefin up security against a possible terrorist attack, bomb threats and such? How about disciplinary action against refs who can't see straight? How about enforcing standard rules against the Shaqs of the league? How about lowerin prices at the concession stand or coming up with a way to ease traffic congestion? Somebody needs to tell this cat that there are bigger fish to fry.

    I agree with AI. Dam what a player's salary is.....pay for what you mandate! Otherwise put that language in the player's contract.

    And this ain't about race either. The only reason that subject came up is because some dumb-azz, pissed off player shot his mouth off cause he could think of nothing else to say. Then the hyper-sensitive media ran with it. It ain't about race! It's about power projection of the misguided idle.

    I hope the players defy this mandate just for GP. Fight a possible fine with a class action suit. I could care less about what an inactive player is wearin as long as he ain't buck naked. He can hardly be distinguished from Joe Blow sittin courside anyway. I care more about what's happenin on the floor!

    What next....no braids? No tattos? Give me a break!
  3. kpaav

    kpaav Team Captain Forum Donor

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    When it is all said and done, I think this will go away quite quickly.

    First, most players wear a suit anyways so no change. For the others, in all honestly do they really care? they already made it so are too busy spending the money.
  4. LA Sam

    LA Sam Second Round Draft Pick

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    GMan & Wave

    GMan, you missed my argument totally, his is basic logic, just follow the deduction to a conclusion.

    1. They only want a change to what? African garb, Indian Garb? No, to White American Garb, something blessed by one group in this country.

    2. If the NBA was mostly white, there wouldn't be a dress code. Proof? Ever visit Bill Gates(well, he does wear suits more often these days), or Michael Dell, or just about any corporation these days, and you'll see a lot of jeans. Special occasions dress, going to work... please.

    3. Finally, did they take a poll of any other business owners, or just the major corporate sponsors? What color were they?

    You're right, it is all about business, but not for the reasons you speculate. The demand to wear certain closes is about race, the reason to follow it is about business.

    Micro: I'm not trying to stir things up, it's called having another opinion, and what's weak is responding with one liners that don't address any of the comments.
  5. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    Sam

    That's the best argument I've seen against the dress code and in my opinion 100 per cent dead accurate. I think the issue is a lot more significant than people are making it out to be.

    The thing that irks me is that the players are going to swallow it and not make a stand against it. These aren't a lot of powerless Dilberts like most of us. Someone make a stand and be willing to take the flak.
  6. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    I would have to agree.

    The look the NBA is trying to get away from is one that is associated with African Americans. The issue is that the "casual" way that these athletes dress is being associated with criminal behavior. I doubt seriously that this rule was created with the Steve Nashs and Tim Duncans of the world who dress less polished and more relaxed. You can see it in the details, "no headphones, jewlery, etc...") Who makes a dress code where you cannot wear jewlery. lol! The question that needs to be asked is just who is finding this look to be offensive. I would suggest that the ones who are threatened by this look are the same ones who feel uncomfortable and frantically search to insure that their possessions are secure when an African American male enters into an elevator with them at night. They are also the ones that get a pit in their stomach when a group of young African American males passes them by on the street. Financial rational? I don't see it. The NBA makes alot of money off its look. Throwback jerseys are a tremendous source of revenue and alot of this can be attributed to the African American athlete.

    "The demand to wear certain closes is about race, the reason to follow it is about business."

    You could not have stated that any better. Except I think ultimately it will be bad business. African Americans spend more discretionary income than any cultural group in the United States. The auto industry has caught on to this statistic. Have you watched any car ads lately?

    So yes, the NBA has the right to make their employees wear whatever they feel appropriate. And they should comply, or leave. Their choice. Make no mistake about it though, this rule is driven by a perception that has roots to ignorance.

  7. barbara SanAntone

    barbara SanAntone First Round Draft Pick

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    Here's what Stern said in Q&A

    From SA Express News during Q&A with Sterns:

    Q. Tim Duncan embodies all that is good about the NBA — work ethic, honesty, sportsmanship, citizenship, team play. How much did it hurt acceptance of your new dress code when he called it, quote-unquote, a load of crap?

    A. "I would say everyone is entitled to their reaction. Hopefully, on more considered thought they would understand that as we try to grow our business to even higher places than it is now, a collared shirt, a pair of jeans and a pair of shoes is not setting the bar impossibly high. But we're the NBA, so everyone has an opinion and entitled to express it, and because we're the NBA, opinions resonate more in society because we deal in issues that are bigger than we are.
    "It's clear this whole subject matter has struck a chord that is so much bigger than the NBA. It is more profound than I thought it was. When you toss in race, where commentators want to make it a racial issue, it shows the NBA is the medium through which all kinds of conversations get launched and occur, which is great.
    "And maybe Tim is right. I'm closer to agreeing with him in terms of the necessity for it; in terms of my having to spend time on it. But we're stuck with it and he's stuck with me, but it doesn't mean he isn't still the best player on the planet, because I think he still is."

    Tim did wear a sports jacket during post game, but took it off and put in locker when interviews over (think he will just keep it in locker for season):nod:
  8. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Here is your address.

    Why does colour matter? By taking the stance you have, you are making a broad sweeping generalization that all people of a certain colour dress the same way. That in itself is discriminatory.

    Could you define white american garb? Do you really feel educated enough on how athletes in Africa and India dress to make statements like that? I know for fact that rugby and cricket teams from the african continent wear suit and tie to and from each game. Even in the poorest of countries. The same in India. It's some form of reverse discrimation for you to imply that they jump into some antiquated traditional garb for the cab ride home.

    If the NBA were white.... Well the NHL is predominantly white and they wear suit and tie to and from games. The NFL and MLB have an informal dress code that players adhere to. Both sports are very diverse with regards to the racial and cultural makeup of their players.

    What the heck is a special occassion? Wouldn't game night be a special occassion? Basketball is entertainment. It's also a business. When you have to make a presentation or represent your business to the customer, isn't that the time to get "gussied up"? No one is mandating how they dress to and from practice, but public appearances representing not only themselves, but their owners, their league etc should have a higher standard. I want to introduce you to a new word. CONTEXT. Look it up.

    Lastly, why should the NBA poll business owners or sponsors? When was the last time anyone had to gain concensus to implement strategy? David Stern sells talent and entertainment. He decides where they play, when they play and how they play. That's his right as the commissioner of the league (aka the representative of the owners).

    It's also his right to demand certain standards from his employees. Particularly when the NBA more so than any other sport has had a negative impression built up over the last several years with the Sprewell choking on up to the Palace Brawl. He's protecting his immediate business interests and fulfilling his mandate.

    You know who makes this a colour issue? The people who have flaunted professionalism, made the news by tossing their girlfriends out of the house in the middle of the night, attacked fans, attacked fellow players etc.

    It's a small group of players who took a lack of standards to the limit and now are flopping and whining like 3 year olds at Toys R Us.

    It's been said before, and I like it. You got a problem with the dress code? Pay the fines. Sit out. Make a statement. Prove that you stand behind your convictions. Be like other great civil rights leaders. Give up your paycheck and stand up for your "race". Refuse to work for a discriminatory league.

    Any player who claims rascism and then still collects his check is a hypocrite and diminshes the struggles of people who have fought real and costly personal battles for basic human rights. Someone said it best. These players will wear a suit and tie when they are drafted and approach the podium to shake the commisioners hand. It wasn't rascist to wear a suit then, and it isn't rascist to wear a suit or sport jacket now.
  9. linwood

    linwood All-Star

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    The argument that throwback jerseys, hats, and chains are somehow exclusive to african americans doesn't hold much water for me. If you have a few spare minutes, jump in you car, and drive up Van Dyke ave from Jefferson. Down by the river and the west/indian village, you are very likely to see many african americans dressed either in suits, or in buisness casual. Keep going north. As you pass Kettering high school, the predominant attire is throwback jerseys, hats, and knockoff bling. Keep driving. Cross into Warren. Factory workers are wearing blue jeans, dickies, and blue work shirts. White kids are wearing throwback jerseys, Hats turned sideways, and knockoff bling.

    If millionaire african american athletes want to dress like children, thats cool with me. If the boss wants them to dress like adults, thats cool with me too.

    I am just not buying the race argument. Sorry. How many middle age african americans in this forum wear throwback jerseys and sideways hats? how many white teenagers in this forum sag their pants?
  10. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Great points, Micro. I can definitely agree with your opinion...especially as it pertains to "put up or shut up". But....it is painfully obvious in my opinion that some of the details surrounding this dress code directly target the African American athlete. I think the league overshot a bit with its detailed list of do's and don'ts and as a result what is driving this dress code has caused suspicion.

    I think Hip Hop and NBA Basketball have been comingled for the past 10 years and what we are seeing is an obvious attempt to weaken that connection. I would argue that the Street ball influenced, strong hip hop beats playing in the background, high flying moves basketball image that has evolved is one that has made the NBA alot of money. It has also broaden the NBAs appeal accross the world. Basketball is by far considered the most "Hip" sport on the map. Elite basketball players as compared to any other professional athletes have become established celebs and pop icons. And to be quite frank...I like what basketball has evolved into. It's entertaining.

    I think that rather than Stern attacking an image that has helped the league boost to new levels in popularity he should be embracing it. Basketball has always had a strong link to American culture. Picture Bill Walton with his Greatful Dead T-Shirts. Dr. J. with his afro. Thank God he wasn't forced to shave that off because it was deemed intimidating or offensive.

    I agree with the NBAs right to implement any type of mandate for a uniform they deem neccessary. It is about making money after all, but I think the NBA...
    • is making a decision that could have negative financial implications in the future
    • insulting a culture by attacking a "look" that has made them alot of money
    • oblivious to the unique product they have created by allowing creative expression
    • relunctant to accept that this negative impression they have of this "targeted look" is one based on racial ignorance
  11. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    It really isn't exclusive to African Americans, but its very obvious where it comes from and what race most people identify with the look. Yep, Hip Hop culture has invaded the entire world. It is not abnormal to see the youth in Japan dressed like todays rappers and professional basketball players. Its a huge money making business.

    Oh, and to answer your question. I actually know alot of middleaged African American men who wear throwback Jerseys with sideways caps. :) The baggy pants thing though...nope. :)
  12. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Why can’t you see
    What you’re doing to me
    When you don’t believe a word I say?
    We can’t go on together
    With suspicious minds
    And we can’t build our dreams
    On suspicious minds

    Do you really believe that fans will stop watching Dwyane Wade or Yao Ming because they have to wear sport coats on the sidelines or entering the arena? Will that alienate you as a fan? I watch basketball for what they do on the court first and foremost. I don't think sports coats will make the NBA Finals any less entertaining.

    I don't think Stern is attacking anything. I think that he is making a smart business move on many levels. The players want to contest the dress code in the next CBA? They'll have to give something back. Advantage Stern. He wants to make the league a little more professional in appearance and require the players to treat it like a job? I don't see a problem with that, it is a job. What happened in the past was a different time. And many of those ols school stars wore suits and ties, dressed up without having to be told that looking good is classy.

    The problem is that Stern had to react to the impression that the NBA has unchecked creativity. Creativity ON THE COURT sells tickets and promotes the game. Creative lifestyles and fashion are sidebars. Honestly, how many people are checking out who is wearing what shoes when Ben blocks a shot into the crowd? Or when AI breaks his man down and scores helter skelter on a layup?

    No culture is being attacked, and certainly no race. Something most people do not know is that each team could already set it's own guidelines for dress. All Stern did was create a league wide standard. Atlanta already had plans to implement a stricter dress code than the league mandated. And that was driven by their BLACK coach Mike Woodson.

    I've been on the receiving end of a fair share of rascism in my life. It had to do with people being ignorant of my culture and heritage, not the way I dressed. I'm secure enough in who I am not to worry about dressing like a white man, or listening to music made by black men. I don't need to dress a certain way to have cultural identity. I don't need to speak or act a certain way to have cultural credibility. Who I am is what my culture is.

    Chauncey Billups is one of the slickest and snazziest dressers in the NBA. Does that mean he is rejecting his culture? No. He's just got an acute sense of fashion and a desire to put out a positive and successful self image. Chauncey isn't worried that wearing a suit will make him less black. Why should anyone else?

    You know what I think is ignorant? That you have to dress a certain way to have racial identity. A black man in a pink tutu is still a black man. Maybe a little fruity, but he's still a brother. And no matter what music or clothes I buy I will never be able to change my race.
  13. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Nah, I think the game is strong enough to survive on its own merits. I just believe that merchandising might be adversly affected.

    The CBA point is a valid one and makes alot of since. This is a different time, but there is no doubt in my mind that the "look" which Stern's dress code details is one that is associated with the average Hip Hop star. And that look has been perceived as menacing or threatning. Again, if everyone in the league dressed modestly like Steve Nash or Tim Duncan would we be talking about a dress code?

    Personally, I don't but if noone checked out what AI was wearing would he have an exculusive contract with Reebok? Obviously some people care. Besides, I don't think the Hip Hop element really plays a part until the fans see footage of the players entering the building or post game interviews....except as it pertains to basketball shorts. Thank the Fab 5 for that. We could still be in a league where everyone looks like John Stockton. :) All that being said, I still have not seen a case where monitering "unchecked creativity" in the NBA is warranted. What about these athletes is offensive as it pertains to dress? How is AI's clothing hurting anyone or the game? In the business sector that I work at in Florida which is a contrast to the companies in Michigan (as I remember), the standard dress code is business casual. The arguement for what is considered "business like" is an ongoing discussion in itself. NBA players use music to calm themselves and get mentally prepared for the game. Should this be sacrificed (usage of headphones) because someone likes ties? I just don't see the logical arguement here.

    Obviously African Americans come in all shades, colors and opinions. That isn't the point. I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you though. I think a specific culture is being attacked. It's in the details. Exceptions: "Chains, pendants, or medallions worn over the player's clothes", "Sunglasses while indoors", "Headphones"... If I didn't know any better I'd think I was reading a Saturday Night Live skit. :)

    We are defintely in agreement here. If you couldn't tell...I'm black. lol! And I am far from the stereotypical one depicted by the mainstream. I have encountered many different types of racism myself stemmed by ignorance in my life and I have never been one to try to pigeon hole someone or a race in a short description. Diversity is a beautiful thing and exists within our culture as well as with every other person on this planet. I am simply stating that the young african american male has a popular face. That face has ties into hiphop and is obviously pronounced enough where Stern felt it garnered some attention. He wants to eliminate that face in professional basketball, but how does he feel that helps his product?

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