Dumars still has done nothing

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Lee356, Jul 8, 2009.

  1. raxrets

    raxrets Team Captain

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    the problem is that trading rip and tay in the gods sake of trading them - well, let's say somebody offers mediocre talance for either rip and tay - but what is the point of it from Pistons perspective? This team already has lesser talent in its roster. Or sombody offers expiring contracts - cmon, tay is expiring anyway and rip's expiration is not so far

    Also - I suggest to follow FA market now - many sign and trades happened and trade exceptions became hot commodity.


    for instance, tay may expire w/o trade and it gives a chance for JoeD for s&t. and a chance to get trade exceptions. Ditto with rip.

    tay and rip are valuable assets for contenders. I'm preferring contenders begging for them at the trade deadline instead of JoeD desperately offering them now.
     
  2. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    A Facebook friend who lives in Minnesota posted this:
    I posted this:
    He replied this:
    Just one Wolves fan's opinion.
     
  3. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    You're right and I respect your point of view so, here's a few facts for you (1) We have too many SG's.(2) We have too many SF's.(3)We have too many PF's, none of whom, are what one would consider starter material.(4)We Have no PG.(5) We have no Center.(6) Joe has done nothing in terms of this roster to remedy the situation.I look at what it has taken to land David Lee and AL Jefferson (a little of nothing) and it's hard for me to accept the idea that the so called "Best GM in the league" couldn't at the very minimum clear a contract off the books in a summer filled with depleted rosters and cap space, while every other GM in the league has been MAKING things happen.
     
  4. raxrets

    raxrets Team Captain

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    Sry, KREG, you're an example of contradiction now:

    First , you try to undermine rip and tay's value, saying that they have no room there.

    second, you're ranting "ohwhyohwhtjoedisnottradingripandtay?" How can you trade "damaged" goods? This is typical fan mistake: this player sucks. trade him away. But how you can trade sucking player, uh,ah?


    PS. check at nba.com/pistons today. Silvertongue had an interview with "one certain dumb GM" where business is discussed.He'll post it later though, so silvertongue said it in his blog.
     
  5. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    Again, you don't know what was available. A $13 mln trade exception is neither little nor nothing. David Lee was traded for 3 decent players either young with upside or expiring contracts. If you analyze both of the deals, the Pistons had nothing to come with. In order to clear the roster, you need to find someone who will take the contracts off your hand. And if you can't find anyone, then you just an SOL, kind of like Joe D. Unfortunately, wishful thinking doesn't always translate into something material. According to your logic, Joe has purposefully assembled a roster that is highly imbalanced and full of holes. But look at many other teams: how many have a complete roster of all the players that they want? And I think that it is correct to assume that there will be more demand for the players like Tay and Rip closer to the deadline when the competitors will need to fill holes on their rosters and therefore more leverage for Joe to get something of value back be it a player(s), draft pick(s), etc.
     
  6. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    OK I want BOTH of them gone! We don't need squat in return. I'll take the $23M in Capp Spayce if nothing else, why you may ask?

    Rip and Bengo need to play at least 32MPG, in order for us to accomodate that typical NBA Political Super Star Bull Jive, we have to play small ball.

    We also need mins for Will Bynum, more small ball.

    Daye, JJ, and Summers were all drafted with the hope that one of them could be Tayshaun's replacement or at least spell him some minutes. All 3 are at least good enough to back him up, 2 are good enough to replace him altogether, but NONE of them are really getting minutes at SF because in order to sooth the NBA ego's of Rip and Bengo, we have to play SMALL BALL!!!!

    The roster imbalance is killing us! Bryan COlangelo once said, "If you're losing AND your young guys aren't playing, you're losing twice!" and I agree. We're not going to win the title in the next year or so, so move out guys who are not part of the re-build and lets get this party started, it's time to close the book on yesterday! I'm sorry but it's hard to convince me that Joe can't GIVE these guys away! Or convince me that he hasn't had the chance, had he done that, WE could have absorbed a contract for a few draft picks.



    Anthony Randolph, Kelenna Azubuike and Rony Turiaf.....I think we can match that talent level! Again, It's hard for me to beleieve that Joe has not had 1 single opportunity to move Rip and/or Tayshaun to a team with the cap room to absorb them, thus giving us an 8figure trade exception. Of course, as you have stated, I have no facts, but it's just hard for me to believe.

    I don't know, hard for me to believe that teams have no interest in JJ, sometimes that's the best purpose a young player serves.......trade bait!

    True, no argument here, just seems like Joe D has been SOL since he signed Antonio McDyess (except the draft, Stuckey, JJ, Daye....GREAT PICKS, although he should have drafted Splitter instead of spellcheck)

    Well who drafted and signed these players?

    I care only about the Pistons being able to compete, I don't care if them other "Idiot GM's" can't get the job done, but I do care that our "Idiot GM" is doing NOTHING!

    Wait a minute my friend, did Mr.Fact just make an assumption? I don't think so, teams are all signing players with cap space from depleted rosters, they will have nothing to trade. Other teams are not in need of Rip and Tay's services, there was a window of time this summer where Joe needed to be aggressive and well, he played his wait and see game, thi stime it's backfired........But, I'll work under your assumption and give Joe the benefit of the doubt and say, he tried but was just SOL.....still not happy. Joe always likes to "wait until the smoke clears" his patience used to work to his benefit, this time the smoke is clearing and there's nothing to be had!
     
  7. raxrets

    raxrets Team Captain

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    doubtful. We'll see desperation in the air next two years because it is obvious ALREADY NOW that many of those crazy signings won't work.

    tay's expiring is not so hot but I can guarantee that Rip's expiring contract will be sought desperately - in the light of overspending and "depression era " new CBA there will be many teams seeking for capp reliiffff.

    KGREG, better :skidmark:
    :)
     
  8. Brap

    Brap Starter

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    There are some thoughtful discussions going on in this thread right now, which I appreciate. Some thoughts:

    1) Joe is not stupid. He knows the team is short on big men.

    2) Joe drafted a consensus top 3 big man in the draft in Monroe. This is one of those every team in the league would have picked Monroe where he fell to us moments. The Whitesides, etc. fell out of the first round. Davis was much more raw than our guy.

    3) Trading up for Cousins? I love watching him out on the court. The guy has the talent to be a top center in this league, and he's going to flash that right out of the box. But talent isn't his issue - being the next Isiah J.R. Rider or maturing is his issue. That makes trading up for him, even if we could have, problematical - perhaps stupid. But even if we wanted to grab him, maybe offering Tay to Sac to switch picks would have been or was turned down by Sac and all the teams ahead of them. Or maybe Joe felt that keeping Tay as a big time asset for later in the year plus drafting Monroe > Cousins.

    4) I think a lot of the posters right now are underrating the talent on this roster. Accumulating assets IS what Joe needs to be doing right now, so he can evaluate them as he builds a cohesive and contending roster. And IMO, the following guys are assets or could well be placed in that category in the near future:

    a) Stuckey -- This guy gets way too little respect around these parts. He's got a chance to be a multiple all-star performer.

    b) Gordon - top flight 6th man - just needs to get healthy. When he's right, he's one of the best scoring SG's in the game.

    c) Daye - he's young but has all-star ability.

    d) Tay - one of the best glue guys in the game, a championship level player in his prime and on an expiring contract. Maybe he doesn't fit for the Pistons as well as he will on another team, but this guy is a HUGE asset this season as a trade chip. Wait until the trade deadline before we judge whether we got value for this asset.

    e) Rip - in one more season he's a big time expiring contract. His value goes through the roof next season. He might even be a big time value by this season's trade deadline, since he might fit a contender's rotation perfectly. This is a guy that teams will look at and think: Ray Allen was terrific well into his mid-30's, and Rip is that level of player and athlete.

    f) JJ - an obvious asset who would be coveted by any team. Hard to believe he isn't a long term fit for the Pistons as well.

    g) CV?? If he gets it together a healthy CV on a very reasonable contract becomes a very nice asset for a contending team and might still prove to be a great fit on our roster. But at the minimum, a healthy CV is a fine scorer in this league.

    h) Wilcox - expiring contract. Asset as a trade kicker.

    i) Bynum. I want to resign him because when healthy, this guy is a dynamic scorer off any team's bench. As long as his price is reasonable, he'd be very tradeable whenever we're ready to - if we even want to.

    j) Summers. I believe this guy is clearly an NBA rotation player. Some team will be intrigued by him if he doesn't crack our rotation - at least as a trade kicker. Certainly right at this moment he's not much of an asset, but he has the potential to step up and take over a rotation spot on the Pistons as early as this season. We'll have to see on him.

    k) Monroe - we'll just have to see on him, but there's no reason why the #7 pick in the draft won't pan out.

    l) White - this guy could be a terrific player in this league. He's got the tools and has the athletic ability to be an all-star. If the Pistons trade (or don't resign) Bynum it might be because White, as early as this season, is a guy the Pistons want in their rotation.

    k) Maxiell - I think Maxiell is well regarded around the league. I don't know if if the level of regard for him is high enough to validate his contract, but given the contracts floating around nowadays - see Amir - Maxiell might be a fit in a package traded to a contending team.

    l) The Pistons 2011 #1 pick is a huge asset right now.

    Assets are assets. Profound huh? The point is that right now, the Pistons have a very confusing sorting out process to go through as Joe builds a cohesive plan. Part of this rebuild necessarily involves developing the assets we have, and getting the best value for them as we make trades - and IMO that necessarily requires a lot of patience. But I think my evaluation of our roster and our assets tells me that we have a lot to work with. I'm looking two or three years out for us to be a contender, but I see us as having a really nice base of assets to build on and eventually get there. This is hardly the problem Joe D had when he took over our team. That roster had virtually NO assets whatsoever. This current roster is loaded with assets - even if they are currently a clusterf*&k.

    Here's another asset:

    m) Joe D's patience. He has a lot more patience than any of us posters seem to. And again, Joe's obviously a bright NBA exec.
     
  9. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    I agree Joe is not stupid. I believe Joe knows what this team needs, sort of. I think Joe is SEVERELY overrating the talents of the players Brap just listed, especially Rodney Stuckey. That said, the fact that he knows what we need, and has failed to do anything is problematic to me. Trying and failing is problematic to me, always finding yourself SOL because "Kahn won't play with me" is problematic, it's like the sales associate who's always chasing leads, always talking to customers - but never closes, what good is that? Joe hasn't closed in a long time now, seems to have gotten even worse since Hammonds departure, who is closing like crazy BTW. Lastly I might buy into Rip's contract being valuable down the road, but think about what keeping him is costing us, playing time for young guys, same with Tayshaun. Oh BTW, Tayshaun's contract will not get more valuable as the season moves along, trust me. And am I the only one sick of giving Joe D passes from event to event? Oh wait until trade deadline, oh wait until the draft, oh waith until free agency, oh wait until NEXT trade deadline.....all these things come and go and DUMARS HAS DONE NOTHING! Hence the name of the thread.
     
  10. Stun

    Stun First Round Draft Pick

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    Joe isn't stupid,but come on.Jazz got Al for 2 first rounds picks and nothing else.Joe was able to offer Prince for Al and I think Kahn would have agreed.I hope that Joe has a plan ahead in which he will dramatically improve this team,because with the curent rosters this team won't go anywhere.
     
  11. raxrets

    raxrets Team Captain

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    13 million trade exceptions hardly qualifies as "nothing else"
     
  12. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Not being right for this team is not equal to not being right for any of the other teams in the league that need a veteran 2 or 3.


    Lots of people coming to Joes defense. I like that. Too bad it won't make Joe any better at doing his job.

    I'm just going to kick back and wait for this years excuse to get manufactured.
     
  13. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Joe Dumars tenure as GM in a nutshell:
    • Architected a competitive team predicated on defense through savy trades, free agent acquisition and average drafting
    • Upgraded to a Hall of Fame Coach
    • Perhaps made one of the biggest draft blunders in history
    • Pulled off deal of the year by obtaining Rasheed Wallace and Mike James for little to nothing...followed that up by picking Lindsey Hunter back up after clearing waivers
    • Combination of these factors assembled one of the toughest defensive teams in history and resulted in a NBA Championship
    And this is where his resume takes a turn...
    • Fired Larry Brown
    • Undervalued coaching position as each successive hire seemed to have less experience
    • Changed focus of one of the top defensive teams in history to offense and never recaptured a championship
    • Lost the team's defensive captain
    • Team remained competitive but never surpassed Larry Brown's standard
    • Traded one of the top PG's in the league
    • Mismanaged the transition of the championship core to new blood by acquiring players through trade and free agency with no defensive reputation and assembling a roster full of holes, filled with players who play the same position
    • Seemingly got no value from the championship legacy during reconstruction period
    • Did not have a long term strategic plan in place to become a player in the biggest free agent signing period in the past 20 years
    Take away the championship core and his performance has been very Milke Millen -esque. Joe is overhyped and we need a new face. Mentioning him in the same breath as GM greats like Jerry West, Pat Riley and RC Buford is beginning to seem ridiculous. I don't know what more Joe has to do to lose his job. We must be waiting for him to string together a couple seasons of sub 30 game wins....

    There is no more pot of gold at the end of that rainbow jumper of his.

    Let's move on...
     
  14. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    When Tay gets released next summer for nothing (or worse yet, gets resigned by Joe :yellowprison:) hopefully KGreg can resurrect this thread and see if peoples feelings remain the same.
     
  15. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Yes :)
     
  16. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    Right now we have $31M worth of contracts on the payroll that could walk out the door RIGHT NOW and it wouldn't take away from next years win total. As long as Rip and Tay are still here eating up minutes, Daye will just sit, and sit, and sit. I'm telling you right now Joe is blowing it. Joe did a decent job in the last few drafts, and we have 3 (4 if you count Monroe, I don't, seeing is believing) players on rookie contracts that will probably factor into our future: Stuckey, Daye, & JJ, when that's the case you need to move all big $$$$ contracts to get a solid group of free agents to play with those guys because they don't eat your payroll, we only have that privilege NOW, next summer Stuckey will re-up for about $6-$8M and POOF! Levearge Gone!
     
  17. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    How do you say, TOLD YOU SO, in internet language! Rex's favorite reporter Silver Tongue just confirmed what I spent all night/morning arguing

    PISTONS: Watching, Waiting

    Soooooo lemme get this straight, last wednesday (a week ago) we could have had cap relief and draft picks.......isn't that what the Jazz gave up to land Al Jefferson in Utah?:frusty:

    Oh but wait it gets better, remember I said Joe was doing his, let's be patient crap

    Yeah Joe, you just waited for them to give away a 25 year old 20pts/10rebs 6'10" PF..........yeah Joe it's much better to keep Rip and Tay on the roster just so you can say, "We have championship experience"

    And of course he had to come full circle

    Brap, Rax, Mikhail......PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS BULL JIVE!!!
     
  18. raxrets

    raxrets Team Captain

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    dumars says that there was not a good trade for him available and that is it.

    It does not have to mean that dumars overvalues his players - other GMs probably "read" pistons roster and "see you have a logjam at the SG position, I can help you" - hoping that Dumars is trying desperately to unload some players.

    But dumars maybe tries to get to the position where others are desperate for his players - so that dumars could dictate prices.


    IMO there is no point to add mediocre players or expiring contracts from rip/tay trade. Because of beforementioned scenarios solve nothing.

    And if there is no buyers for rip/tay - atleast Capp Spayce will be there.


    oh, and KGREG, use Silverongue's services and ask from him via mailbag about this ....heartbreaking....trade.
     
  19. buffaloBRAVE

    buffaloBRAVE First Round Draft Pick

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    man I think its pretty clear Joe D. has lost it, this team is going into next season with the same issues. Still no real center on this team, still no real pg, arguably the 2 most important positions in the game. Joe should have moved on Al Jefferson, period. It was a position of weakness on this team that needed to be addressed. Tay and Rip need to get moved and my guess is they wont be going anywhere.

    Sorry guys but the Pistons organization is starting to look more and more like my buffalo sabres and buffalo bills. Kind of sucks, I used to be able to rely on the Pistons to give me something to cheer about, but now it just looks like another one of my fave teams heading in the wrong direction.
     
  20. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I gotta admit, that is one heck of an analogy. It is starting to resemble the guy at work who has a million excuses (in this case, we as fans are coming up with the excuses) why things didn't work out, but bottom line is not performing.

    Wow. I'm a little bit stunned by that. Of course, we don't know for sure if "cap relief" means an expiring contract (which wouldn't have trumped Utah's offer) or a trade exception (which probably would have pulled us seriously into the running, considering we're likely to have better draft position than Utah in the near future). I also can't argue with the fact that we were seriously decimated by injuries so I'll give him that pass this time, but I don't want to hear anything about that if something similar happens this season. Bottom line, if I don't get it done at work, it's on me. After a while excuses don't cut it. I'm not throwing Joe under the bus, I'm just saying that maybe he's not bulletproof anymore in my eyes.
     

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