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Dumars still has done nothing

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Lee356, Jul 8, 2009.

  1. Tyskillz

    Tyskillz First Round Draft Pick

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    I'm very worried and don't like the fact that we have made no real acquisitions yet besides our draft picks... It's flat out unnacceptable, if we go into the upcoming season with the current line up we have now I'll have to join those that have been screaming forever to can Joey D.
    I mean it's the middle of July and Rip & Tay are still on the roster and not even talked about in trade rumors anymore. Come on Joe, closed mouthes don't get fed and your organization is STARVING for size & talent!!!
     
  2. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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  3. Winless Wonders

    Winless Wonders Starter Forum Donor

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    I think nobody wants the players Joe D. wants to trade. The few players that teams want Joe values to much.
     
  4. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    i'm not a joe apologist, and after watching cousins i sure wish we had gotten him, but at the same he would have gotten killed if he plucked amir johnson for the full mid-level. i said it before and i still agree with myself (:D), i'd rather all of these other teams blast through and overpay mediocre free agents, while we wait for the dust to settle and put something in place that will help the future of the team.
     
  5. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    This is not apologizing for Joe, but here is what we have going on.

    We have a lousy team with little chance of making the playoffs. This is good because our kids will play. And they all need to play lots.

    Tay's contract will get increasingly valuable as the deadline approaches because he will be a veteran who can help a team make a push, and he won't come back to haunt them for another year if it doesn't work out.

    Rip, that's just a bad deal. It might be tradeable with Tay in some sort of uber deal.

    But basically, I think we're going to see a whole lot of Daye, JJ, Monroe, Stuckey and some other guys including Ben. We'll maybe win 40 games if we are healthy. Maybe.

    And then we try again the next year with FAs, draft picks, etc.

    This is where we are at today. I don't see some miracle player like Al Jefferson (who is not a winner) come in and power this squad back into 2nd or 3rd round playoff territory.

    Yes, Dumars has made quite a mess. And it will take some time to clean it up.

    Pray for an owner with deep pockets, because what has hurt us most has been staying below the cap when we were in striking range of winning the big one.
     
  6. Mogilny

    Mogilny All-Star Forum Donor

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    I just hope it doesn't come down to worst case scenario, i.e. Tay doesn't get traded at all and averages 34 mins like last season. Braps and some others optimism about the young guys has really got me going on all the young guys on the team, not only JJ. I wasn't too upbeat about Daye and especially not Summers earlier but now I'm even on the White train!

    I mean if we manage to get 35+ wins with the young core given alot of minutes this year then I think we are really onto something. We have an old saying in Sweden, 35+ wins without a center and with a core which is getting better for every season isn't dog %%%%. Add KGREGs $10.5M C to this and some luck in the lottery and Miami here we come! :)

    The most important thing to me this season is that the young guys play alot. That's almost the only thing I really care for.
     
  7. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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  8. raxrets

    raxrets Team Captain

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    o yeah.Totally forgotten aspect here in GM bashing. contenders have 80+millions in salaries, pistons had to operate somwhere 65 range. Thats why dumars was able only to add jokers like herrmann.

    look what orlando or dallas or lakers are doing - for improvement they are ready to pay lux tax, it was total taboo for dumars by owners, it seems.
     
  9. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Good conversation today...almost 50 posts debating the same issue we discussed a couple of summers ago...

    The champs salaries this season was a little over $90 million. As soon as the trophy was presented , Jerry Buss forked over a $20+ million check and went out and celebrated with his employees...

    11 NBA Teams Set to Pay Luxury Tax -- NBA FanHouse
     
  10. TWOTIMESRALPHI

    TWOTIMESRALPHI Team Captain 3x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I wished I could believe you; but I've seen too many seasons when RIP, Tay and the other vets played 35mpg while the young ones only got their chance when many players got injured. Would we have discoverd JJ for that matter if not for the injuries? Or how come Daye didn't play alot although many players were hurt?
    In order to get at least a mediocre record, coaches seem to stick to the vets instead of letting the young ones some burn - we all witnessed this for years now.
     
  11. webz

    webz All-Star Snub Administrator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Ummmm, in case you've forgotten already we were Eastern Conference finalists 6 years running! Who exactly were we going to bench?

    Apart from last season, which past seasons are you talking about? :confused:
     
  12. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    I'm really not sure why people use that phrase so much.
    Until they win, no one is a winner.

    A few "not" winners that come to mind are Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, and Ray Allen.

    I remember hearing people say that about Jordan.

    I don't know...it just doesn't make sense to me to take something that someone has or hasn't done, and use that to define who they are as players or individuals.
     
  13. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Maybe that is because our guys never got injured, and there was no credible young stud behind them?

    Also, if you haven't noticed, 2 of 5 of the old starters are gone, and Ben simply can't play 35 MPG x 82 nights anymore. At best, Rip and Tay will play, but isn't Billups getting traded and Stuckey becoming a full time starter exactly what you were saying doesn't happen?

    That was exactly my point. Al Jeff has been talked up like he's some difference maker. He has never proven himself to be one. He has put up nice numbers and that's it. He has never shown he is a 20/10 guy who can carry a team.

    Now that he is on a deep team, playing with all stars, and lead by a legendary coach he will become a winner. How much of that will be Al Jeff, remains to be seen.


    He's nowhere near that class of player. Those guys lead their teams to the playoffs. They made heroic plays for their franchise, even when they didn't get to championships.

    Their kind of not-winning is like getting third place in the state lottery, and winning $150 when the moneyball jackpot is $23 million.

    Al Jeffs kind of not-winning is not being able to get enough scratch to buy a ticket at all.

    Ya feel me? :D
     
  14. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    I can't imagine a situation where G-Money, A-Daye and Jeb don't get minutes this year. I think that even Rip and Tay see the writing on the wall as far as needing to develop these young dudes through on-the-job experience.

    I can imagine a situation where Rip and maybe even Tay start complaining about their own minutes. If it plays out this way, it might facilitate a trade that might not of otherwise occurred due to Joe's tendency to want to trade his "core" guys to more desirable situations (i.e. Chauncey).

    A little beeothchin and moaning about minutes from Rip just might be just the inpiration that Joe needs to pull a "Rip to Toronto for a conditional 1st rounder" type of deal that might not have happened in the past.
     
  15. TWOTIMESRALPHI

    TWOTIMESRALPHI Team Captain 3x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    The seasin before the last one at least. Plus the many seasons when the team did great in the regular season but everyone knew that there was no way they'd win it all. Regular season is not entirely about winning, it's also about experimentating, mixing, using different line-ups and developing talents. None of these things happened during the successfull yeas, also when it was quite obvious that the team may be good, but not championship material.
    I've seen alot of players who could have eaten at least some minutes; if not to develop talent, then to take some of the heavy burden away from them. I remember tons of games the team won at the cost at letting the starters play 38+minutes. Wasn't worth it and maybe some losses more in order to give the bench players some burn would have been better.
    I've simply seen too many coaches who played the vets a ton no matter what to have a decent record to believe that the young players would play. As I wrote, I don't think JJ would have played alot if not for all of the injuries.
     
  16. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Cmon, man. Quite obvious we were not championship material during those years? It was quite obvious in 2004 that we weren't championship material right before tipoff for Finals Game One. Nobody knew we weren't going to win the title any of those years after. That's revisionist history.
     
  17. TWOTIMESRALPHI

    TWOTIMESRALPHI Team Captain 3x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    After the 2005 playoffs and with the emerging new powers in east and west it was quite obvious that the Pistons' time had come. Just remember how badly the team got beaten by the Miami Heat. From then on, the team never had a chance and I complained about it back in the days because I hated the situation of having a competitive team that just doesn't have what it takes to win it all more than the situation as it is right now.
    During regular season, it wasn't that obvious but it became obvious in the playoffs when opposing teams realized that the Pistons lacked that extra gear other teams had. They didn't get any better in the playoffs, since they had always played the same basketball during the regular season, no experiments, no mix-ups and hance, no possibilities to surprise the opponents.
    Right now, at least we're on the bottom and the situation can only get better.
    Back than, the team was on its way down without people realizing it.
    2004 was completely the opposite - the team improved drastically when it got Sheed. In the years after that, especially in the 4 all stars-season, the team got worse the closer the playoffs came as teams started to adapt to the ever same playing style and rotations.
     
  18. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Not really 'Scoe. Because I've proposed trading for all three of those players over the years, and all three proposals were shot down by the majority for the reason of them not being "winners".

    Al Jeff is only 25, so I'm kind of prone to giving him a pass since he still has more than 8 years of his career ahead of him.

    Whereas Kevin Garnett's Timberwolves were the epitome of playoff "suckitude" for many many seasons.

    Paul Pierce's Celtics were digging into the lottery plenty of times save that one time they beat US and then got beaten by the Nets, who went on to get spanked bigtime by the Spurs. Remember that any sort of playoff "anything" at that time in the East meant little due to the fact that another name for the east at the time was "Least".

    As far as Ray Allen is concerned...perhaps you are confusing his Sonic squads with Gary Payton's teams. He wasn't the hero in much of anything besides the regular season.

    Lest we forget how Jordan was labeled not a winner until he won.

    You just cannot label someone not a winner. It's simply not a sound reason to not draft or trade for anyone.

    It's just as ridiculous as this notion of "Piston DNA". Hamilton and Tayshaun don't have Piston DNA. I don't care what they won hiding behind the apron of someone else.

    They are losers now, and no better than anyone else. Joe's placement of them on a pedestal is ludicrous.
     
  19. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    A 20/10 guy is a 20/10 guy. Few can do it no matter where they play, and I'm speaking historically.

    So yes, compared to what Pistons fans are used to at that spot, he is a difference maker.

    Who's the next best guy Al Jefferson plays with? The third best?

    Both question marks?

    Thats my point.

    When was the last time we have ever had a 20/10 guy? Choco Chip cookie to the first person to get this one.
     
  20. Mogilny

    Mogilny All-Star Forum Donor

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    I like this. I'm not much into this "he's a winner" either. Players don't win titles, teams do. There are some players who elevate and some who choke at crunch time, but it does usually not matter how much you elevate if your teammates suck. And I'd say most of the guys who are "crunchtime players" are just a product of selective memory and variance. Roughly estimated almost 50% of the players are going to have a higher play off average than regular season average and almost 50% are going to have a lower.
     

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