Dumars: Trades, free-agent signings possible

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by markie8002000, May 1, 2009.

  1. theWORM

    theWORM First Round Draft Pick

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    I agree wholeheartedly with the first part Ernie. I imagine Joe is aware that the combo you mention is a poor fit. There is no reason to be believe he is insincere when he says everyone is on the table.

    I do think his plan of assembling a more competitive roster before opening the vault to a better coach is sound for the following reasons:

    a) A good coach is not going to come to Detroit with its roster as presently constructed. Even Thibodeau, who is yet to take the reigns as a head coach, will wait for a better opportunity.

    b) There's no point spending extra dollars on a coach who is worth maybe 2-3 wins with the current roster. Best to start from a clean slate once the roster has taken shape, and you then attract higher quality coaching candidates.
     
  2. 2Tough4You

    2Tough4You Bench Warmer

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    I agree. Randolph is your typical good stats on a bad team type of player. He's always been a very inefficient scoring big who takes too many jumpers and is a cancer to boot.

    Say NO to Zack Randolph.
     
  3. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I would much rather tank than settle at this point.

    Either Joe can pull of a couple transactions to make us a contender, or he should chill.
     
  4. HelloIDistance

    HelloIDistance First Round Draft Pick

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    Totally agree...there is nothing worse then getting a few crappy free agents/players who are either overpaid or you overpay for them and it sets you back for 5 years.

    It seems like every "elite" team has gotten a good player through the draft. It sucks, but we might have to tank for a year or two to get back to where we were. Either that or JoeD pulls a rabbit out of his hat again.
     
  5. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    Oh, I get it. Sorta like the chain smoker who comments that they are not going to stop smoking until the sticky patches stop coming off in the shower.
     
  6. theWORM

    theWORM First Round Draft Pick

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    I am NOT defending the coaching abilities of MC. I am simply defending the RATIONALE behind his hire.

    From memory, the last time I got into a debate of this sort, the kind where every man and his dog were dissin' Mr Joe D for hiring Curry, I openly challenged man and canine alike, to clearly state in no uncertain terms who THEY would have made an offer to after firing the Flipper, with one condition: their choice would have been in a position to consider the offer (i.e., not be currently employed as a head coach by another team), and that the choice would have been likely have accepted the offer.

    Not ONE person responded.
     
  7. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    I did. My choice was the current coach of the Houston Rockets, Rick Aldeman. Excellent coach and we had an opportunity to hire him on many occasions.

    On assembling some talent and then bringing in a good coach... I don't agree with that rational. You don't compromise a winning culture by introducing someone that can instill bad habits. Its also never too early to get players to buy into a coaching philosophy conducive to winning. Joey D. would have more time to access the coaches style and assemble players that compliment his approach more effectively. Never mind the fact that having a respected coach adds more incentive for free agents. Joe Dumars pointed out that he was trying to avoid a massive rebuilding effort because he didn't believe that there were too many success stories that proved this was a viable approach. Complete rebuilding efforts take years upon years to materialize with no guarantee that the players you assemble have the chemistry it takes to win the big one. Maintain a steady core, develop youth and never give up something for nothing. That appeared to be Joe Dumars's keys to success. Unfortunately, we've been unsuccessful with carrying those objectives out. Honestly, I won't be convinced that we have a legitmate shot at winning championships again until we upgrade the person responsible for the X's and O's, managing player personalities, and giving the team an identity on the court.
     
  8. detteam

    detteam All-Star

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    Good post Mo...my thoughts exactly.
     
  9. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    When is Laimbeer going to break out and take a coaching job somewhere else in the NBA?
     
  10. 2Tough4You

    2Tough4You Bench Warmer

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    Couldn't agree more with what you said in this post. Excellent points.
     
  11. theWORM

    theWORM First Round Draft Pick

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    Fair points. Although I do not ever recall Aldeman ever being raised. The assumption that Aldeman would have been willing to take the reigns of a team clearly on the down is a big one. I do not believe he would have taken the job, at the very least not without a long, secure, big money contract, and even then, why would Adleman not wait for a better gig to pop up, like I don't know, maybe coaching Yao and the Rockets?!?

    Every head coach hiring represents a risk, especially when a team is in a state of flux, the coach is inheriting a team that is not ideally constructed, and neither GM nor coach has any idea what the roster might look like halfway into the coach's contract. Would the roster then suit the coach's philosophy, and would that group of players be responsive to it? Remember, it's far easier to hire coach to suit the strengths of roster, than it is to attempt to acquire players that suit a coach's philosophy.

    Which brings me my next point. It is all very well to criticise Joe for the hiring in HINDSIGHT. Recently retired players that have made an impact as head coaches include Nate Mac, Avery, Doc Rivers, Scotty Brooks, and Scott Skiles. I am sure this is what Joe had in my mind when he hired Curry, as the Bulls had in mind when they hired Del Negro. That it has not panned out as well as those other names is always part of the risk. At least it was a low cost SHORT-TERM risk.

    As for maintaining the standards achieved in the past few years, I agree. Ideally we would have done that, re-tooled on the fly, and had another shot to get to the finals again. The only thing the last couple of seasons have proved is that intending to do so, and making it happen, are two completely different things. Joe left it too late (once Ben left, and with no one to replace to his output, it was over), and no coaching hire other than perhaps those of fantasy, would have changed that. If Joe had pulled the trigger and blown up the core sooner, he would have been castrated for doing so prematurely, and he would have always wondered if it was the right thing to have done. We paid a price for sticking with that core for so long, and now we need 2-3 years to get back in the hunt.

    The appropriate time for a big-name hire will present itself sooner or later. After the firing of the Flipper, there could not have been a WORST time to have attempted to have signed a coach to a big money long-term contract.
     
  12. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    Good post and an obvious post.

    Could there be a reason for extremely successful coaches kick out the door as winners?

    The dominance and uncontrolled direction of this team over the years created a climate of rightfulness. This developed into a closed club atmosphere. It did not matter who coached and what the eventual winning record turned out to be...it came down to a false image of themselves...this rightfulness was determined to influence those outsiders as a given and any external help from within (bench) or external (trades) were excluded from their characters. Expanded growth of the ball club was not allowed to advance talent. I blame one person for letting this situation develop.

    Hiring Curry was pure defensiveness.

    There are two ways of dying in the desert. By thirst and by drowning.

    Curry satisfied the former and we must now be cautious about the weather patterns.
     
  13. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Thanks for the reply.

    I never liked the Saunders hiring. After Joe hired Saunders and we squandered so many championship caliber years under his guidance, I believe that Joe was probably a year too late with the firing. I never bought that the players did not have what it took with its personnel (even after Ben walked) to win another championship. I've always contested that the culture change of not living up to our potential was a Flip contribution. Joe has never given me confidence that he has respected the role the coach plays in the championship equation. After we won with the last core of players, he commented that a big name coach wasn't necessary for a championship with that group of players. He was wrong.

    (pause, for a frustrating what da hell were you thinking yell!)

    Joe, you were WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!

    Championship coaches for the last 29 years:

    K.C Jones
    Bill Cunnigham
    Doc Rivers
    Gregg Popovich
    Pat Riley
    Larry Brown
    Phil Jackson
    Rudy Tomjanovich
    Chuck Daly

    9 Coaches in 29 years!

    So, you obviously need to have someone pretty impressive behind the bench to win the big one. Otherwise you become a part of that long list of also-rans. Team's with tremendous talent that just weren't good enough to win it all. The list above is a virutal who's who of coaching. Even Doc Rivers was a former coach of the year prior to winning the championship with the Celts. With a championsip calibur team in place, I wouldn't hire anyone who didn't seem like they were on the verge of breaking that list. Our organization had earned the right to expect greatness. Now, the perceived value of the position has been compromised.

    The most frustrating thing about the Pistons post the championship was our inability to win another one given the talent Joe assembled. Real improvement starts with putting the right coach in place. Its a solid investment. You pay the money and work with him to build the future. Right now, the next coaching change will have to be more than a tweaking job. It will be a convince the team you can win job which I think is a more daunting task. Michael Curry was hired to coach a core that still had the potential of returning to greatness (in my opinion). He should have never been given that opportunity in the first place. This was simply too high profile of a job for someone who has never coached a proffesional game at the college or NBA level. Eventually, it would give Joe an excuse to move Chauncey (after the team got worse under Curry) and again devalue the impact his hiring of Flip had on the organization in the first place. You know Worm, we as fans are all willing to give Joe credit for masterminding the championship season. I'm certainly included in that "we". But, we should be equally willing to give him credit for unintentionally sabotaging what he put together in the first place.

    Someone needs to be accountable for the past two coaches, the bumbled draft picks, and the absence of getting something in return for the captains/leaders of our championship team's defense and offense.

    I'm a fan of Michael Curry's work ethic. Its a shame that he was put in a situation he couldn't possibly produce in. If Joe was going to go inexperienced, honestly, he should have hired Laimbeer. At least Laimbeer had shown leadership behind the bench with the Detroit Shock. I will never understand that one... And prior to this year, Detroit was still considered a hot, attractive coaching situation to almost any coach in the league. I don't know why Aldeman wouldn't have wanted to coach here after being with a severely challenged Sacramento Kings roster for so many years. The oft injured core of Yao Ming and Tracey McGrady in the West doesn't sound like a more compelling coaching situation.

    Until Joe puts someone behind the bench that instills confidence, I will not have any confidence that this team is making any progress that is sustainable.

    Thanks to my PF family that chimed in and agreed with my position. Its nice to know that others share your opinions. No matter how few... lol.

    Worm, I enjoy your posts. Thanks again for the reply.
     
  14. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Motown, we missed your daily commentary bro, but I understand, if we ain't winning sometimes it's frustrates you to get excited about the team. I was not sure if the Flip hiring was OK either until the Pistons stated to roll to the 35-5 record.

    I was thinking at the time that Nate mcMillan was a better fit or even Phil Jackson who had sat out the 04-05 season to write a book, but alas during the LB lameduck session, mc sign with Portland and Jeannie Buss, convinced her lover to come back to the Lakers.

    Flip was waiting in one of Mr D's private boxes poised to take over and after failing in two straight ECF's I too thought his tenure with the Pistons should have been terminated.

    I am almost certain that Laimbeer, JVG or Avery Johnson would have jumped at taking over either to start the 07-08 term if Flip had been fired earlier or even this past season. I think that Avery even turned down a job offer in Memphis hoping that Joe or a team with winning potential would hire him, but unfortunately Joe went with his buddy Curry and I think that he was just overwhelmed and a few players just quit on him before the season was over...
     
  15. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Hey Dre,

    My absence was not by choice, it was out of necessity. Being a full-time entertainer and being involved with my own business has sucked up my time. I do however take the time to read everyone's posts. I'm extremely frustrated with the direction of the team, but it will never affect my passion or love for the Pistons. We are married till death do us part. lol.

    I think we all drank the kool-aide after Flip's start. But I think many of us were still spoiled fans and knew that Flip's success would ultimately be judged in the post season. The post season has been Flip's Achilles's Heel for his entire coaching career. His tenure in Detroit was no different. Joe didn't know when to say when with Flip, and we got a DUI. I still don't believe the organization is sober...
     
  16. theWORM

    theWORM First Round Draft Pick

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    Thank you for the thoughtful response. The points of my post are indeed obvious, in the sense that they are an observation of things that have happened, and indeed, some of the points are echos of what has been said before and by other members.

    It is ironic, as you point out, that the things that made the team what it is, that propelled it to a championship, are the very things that lead to its downfall?

    Forgive me for not understanding the desert analogy. Maybe after a night's sleep it will become clear.
     
  17. theWORM

    theWORM First Round Draft Pick

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    MotownPride is the bomb! It is pleasure to make such exchanges. Far and beyond the superficiality that dominates the internet forum landscape.

    Now, I hope I have done you justice in highlighting the main points of your post. They have stimulated further thinking on several key issues. For the most part, I cannot disagree with you. Who here was genuinely excited about the Flipper being hired, and who had that sense of "Oh no, four seasons of mediocrity ahead?" The benefit of hindsight was not needed. I will add that JHo (as in ESPN's Hollinger) has argued that statistically, the Pistons were a superior team under Flip. I guess choking in the fourth is not something you can quantify.

    This statement begs a thorough analysis. The argument here is that for a franchise to be consistently great and regularly vie for a championship, it needs the stability of one of the all time greats over a lengthy period of time. PJax, Pop, Riley, (tears welling in my eyes) Coach Daly.

    This is not a new argument. Lets take Jerry Sloan as an example, since he holds the longest tenure and his teams are always in the hunt for a spot in the WCFs. In the 20(?) odd years Jerry Sloan has been behind the Jazz bench, he has produced exactly 2 finals appearances and 0 championships. In the that same span, the Pistons have been through 12+ (?) head coaches, and have produced 4 finals appearances and 3 championships. Although you can argue that only 2 coaches are responsible for all of those, of the 6 straight ECFs appearances, these were under 3 different head coaches. I'd say that more than any other team, the Pistons have proven that you do not need a big name coach over an EXTENDED period of time to be in the hunt for the big prize. However, that is not to say a top tier coach is not required to win a championship. Just that the stability one brings over many years is not necessarily needed.

    Yes, Joe does NOT put the same value on the head coaching position that other GMs and owners around the league do. This stems from the late Mr D. There is a huge problem with this line of reasoning.

    On the one hand the Flipper does not get the team out of the ECFs three years running, and Joe says he felt we were the better team. Its therefore the coach's fault. On the other hand Joe says that with the right roster, any decent coach can lead it to the Finals with a chance to win it all. These two views are completely contradictory (did I actually just criticise Joe D?). So which one is wrong? Is Flip a sub-standard coach, or did Joe overvalue his talent, as many here argue (sorry my memory does not allow me to name names and give credit where its due). Flip sucks right? If we had a HOF'er in his place, or even Ricky C, we would have made the finals at least once out of those three? I would tend to agree, but...

    In considering the other side of the argument, let's take someone you mention: Doc Rivers. Ironically, before Allen and Garnet arrived, fans and journalists alike were screaming for Doc's head. One in particular, both a fan and writer, was Billy Simmons (who BTW seemed to eventually recover after loosing his mojo when Isaiah threatened acts of physical violence in the media. Thought I should mention that but don't know why). I recall that even after the big three came together, Simmons would argue that Doc would find a way to screw it up in the fourth despite the talent. His time managment skill were apalling. He did not know when and when not to call a timeout, etc. Fast forward one championship ring later and you mostly here the sports guy, and the whole of Boston, sing his praises. Surely, Doc Rivers is the ultimate evidence for Joe's view that with a championship caliber roster, any decent coach will do?

    Ultimately, I do not think it is so clear cut which one is correct, and if anything I sense it is a mix of both: Flip not being up to it, and the roster not being as good as Joe D thinks it was. Regardless, the Pistons scapegoat the head coach, and Joe escapes accountability. I must admit, I had been blind to this until now, and bet a couple of the smarter ones around here have stated this all before, in perhaps not so many words.

    I must disagree. Ben's defection was a HUGE blow to the team in so many ways, and even if he had been resigned, his diminishing athleticism and productivity, would have seen a similar, if not so drastic, outcome. Pryzbilla turned us down. We signed Nazr. It was over. A good team? Yes. Greatness? Not close enough.

    The real mistake was not drafting Bosh. Yes, I like to quote Shaq when talking about Bosh, but he would have extended the careers of both Ben and Sheed. We did not need Melo, and we did not know how good Wade would be, so Bosh would have been the best pick at the time.

    My problem here is the yardstick we are using to measure Joe D's performance. Witness the suffering of the pre 08 Celtics, and the suffering they are likely to endure once the big three 'go Sheed' on them. Not to mention the post 98 Bulls. And dare I say it, the post 91 Pistons.

    Aside from the Darko debacle, Joe D did the best he could. He cleared cap space to resign Ben to the biggest contract ever offered to a Piston at the time, and in doing so got rid of the Darko for the pick that landed the promising young Stuckey. Ben was always going to take Chi town's money, Flipper or no Flipper. When you grow up so poor that you don't even have electricity and a fridge, you don't turn your nose up at several million dollars. Believe it. And replacing him was impossible.

    The Curry hire I have defended, despite it not working out. I still say the reasoning behind was and remains sound. There were simply few worthy candidates at the time. And he could have turned out to be the next Doc Rivers, who BTW, won COTY as a Rookie (or at least a sophmore) with Orlando didn't he?

    You answer this yourself. Because Joe D does not put the same value on the head coaching position as most others do. No coach would come to Detroit, knowing they are as disposable as a pair of dippers, unless they are seriously desperate for a head coaching gig (Curry), or they have a decent shot at getting to the finals, and only if the contract is for four years, and into 20mil territory. And here's another.

    Adleman: Daryl, you don't seriously expect me to lead this team to the promised land with McGrady on the roster do you? Morley: I hear you Rick. McGrady's a bum, err... I mean, he has a bum knee. Don't worry. You have Yao in the middle. We have some hard nosed blue collar guys around him. And I am pretty sure I can talk Sactown into giving us Ronnie for 10 cents on the dol. (cutting in) Adleman: Where do I sign?

    Agreed. Its just that at VERY best, Adleman was only a 50/50 shot of coming to Detroit, and assuming he rejected the overtures, who then would we have sought. By all accounts, Joe reached out to Avery (although it may have been a shrewd PR move to pacify us PF members), but he has been happily been working for ESPN ever since, waiting for the right gig to pop up...

    Likewise. Even if your posts are a tad too long :stirthepot:.
     
  18. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    You have. Thank you.

    I would agrue that the real argument is that a championship is what happens when a championship caliber team meets a championship caliber coach. I don't think Utah has ever had that luxury and its been mainly a deficiency of personel. Realistically, there best shot was the Malone, Stockton years. Unfortnately, it was during the Jordan era which was a wash for many. Its not simply a matter of tenure. [/quote]

    I never bought into the hype that Doc Rivers wasn't a great coach. I saw him grow as a coach under Orlando (which I why he won the coach of the year award) and overachieve with an underwhelming squad through hard work and effort. He was very close to pulling a colossal upset against the Pistons before inexperience took over. Doc wasn't handed a great squad immediately in Boston. He came into the job with coaching experience that included the playoffs. Danny Ainge knew what he was getting before he made the Allen, Garnett trades. Doc is more of an example of grabbing hold of a coach on the verge of greatness.

    Hmmm...You're right. It is impossible to know if the talent we had left after Ben walked was good enough to win it all. My gut tells me it was good enough to get to the Finals though. Missing out on Bosh and having to live with Darko was indeed the big misjustice. Great points.

    Have to disagree with you. When your offered the biggest contract ever offered to a Piston at the time, the electricity/fridge issues have been resolved. lol. I believe he left because he wasn't happy with the direction under Flip. But of course, its all speculation.

    Areas where I think Joe failed the most outside of Darko selection were:
    • His inability to make a sign and trade deal happen with Ben
    • Hiring of Flip Saunders
    • Delayed firing of Flip Saunders
    • Hiring of Michael Curry
    • Giving up too quickly on Chauncey Billups
    • Delayed firing of Michael Curry
    A lot of these points are of course subjective. However, what is concrete is that when all was said in done, Joe was not able to fully translate his talent into multiple championships. That is a downer and I'm sure Joe in retrospect has to be disappointed in that.

    The Orlando hiring was not a high profile job at the time so it makes sense that he was given a chance. Detroit had a much higher standard for coaching when Curry was hired.

    Lol. Very possible. Do you really think the Pistons reputation with coaches was that bad though? Flip wasn't treated like he was disposable. Joe rode with him for entirely too long.


    Hey, I'm a professional poet. I get paid to be longwinded. lol.
     
  19. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    After reading through these epics and operating with 100% hindsight, the Nazr signing probably was the tipping point for the franchise. As time has gone on I more and more feel like Joe is a bit archaic in his thinking and he wanders around in a perpetual daze fighting late 80's Central Division battles in his head.

    When Ben left that was Dumars chance to get quicker and get a wing player who could get their own shot instead of signing Nazr with the MLE. They could have started Sheed & Dyess then and added a backup big/buyout later.
     
  20. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    Absolutely; it is not an exaggeration that JD is not a long range thinker and he is sets himself up for panic mode when all Plan B's are a mixture of merely filling any void.
     

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