Dumars: Trades, free-agent signings possible

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by markie8002000, May 1, 2009.

  1. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    Was this before or after he was playing him 43 mpg?

    I think MC was pretty crafty in saying the right things at the start of the year to get people on his side. I was ready to set myself on fire for him at the start of the year.
     
  2. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    It is hard to criticize Flip's laid back offensive strategy when our offense improve greatly over LB's version.

    Year: Off/ Def/ Pt Spread
    2004 (LB): 90.1/ 84.3/ +5.8
    2005 (LB): 93.3/ 89.5/ +3.8
    2006 (FS): 96.8/ 90.2/ +6.6
    2007 (FS): 96.0/ 91.8/ +4.2
    2008 (FS): 97.5/ 90.1/ +2.6
    2009 (MC): 94.2/ 94.7/ -0.5


    For LB's 2nd season, we clearly could have won our 2nd championship. And that year, we gave up almost 90 points per game. Over the entire Flip Saunders era, our defense remained almost the same (90.2, 91.8, 90.1) while our offense exploded.

    So from a regular season standpoint, Joe's philosophy worked- we kept our defensive identity while we added a coach who was an offensive expert. From a point spread perspective, 2006 was our pinnacle. 2007 was also very strong.

    Either our regular season strategy under Flip was fool's gold, or we got unlucky by running up against stiffer competition in the ECF's. I could make an argument either way... and probably have.

    One thing is clear though, we were a dominant defensive team in 2003-04 and no year since has compared. Since we had the same core in 2005 and the same coach, the change in the way that games were called has to be a suspect.
     
  3. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    So averaging over all the LB years, the opponents scored 86.9 per game and averaging over the Flip years they scored 90.7 - opponent scoring went up 3.8 PPG or about 4%.

    Would you know if average league scoring went up a similar amount? How much of the gap is due to the changes in defensive rules?

    Or did those change after 2004, so there is actually no difference between LB after the rules change and Flip on defense?
     
  4. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Yes, it's conceivable that the new rules have added 3 or 4 points per game (maybe worth a look see).
    I remember LBs first year... it was one week before the season opener and he said they had not yet practice a single offensive set.... he was all about creating offense from your defense.
     
  5. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    That's what I'm saying. I think Stern issued the anti-Pistons directive after the '04 season.

    And I'm contending that our defense in '05 should not have been any worse than in '04. So, the rules could have added about 5 points allowed per game to a team that actually played defense like Detroit. For teams that didn't give a crap about D, the change wouldn't have meant much (so looking at the overall average wouldn't necessarily translate).

    The most telling evidence for me that the rules change affected us is looking at the Spurs (a defensive team that was pretty much unchanged from '04 to '05).

    In 2004, the Spurs scored 91.5 and gave up 84.3.
    In 2005, the Spurs scored 96.2 and gave up 88.4.


    So, we were built to play defense, and then the rules changed to favor offense. The year after the rules change, the 2 best defensive teams still ended up making it to the finals, where we barely lost to the Spurs.

    But after that, the 2003 draft class was coming of age and we were wiped out by young offensive freaks like Wade and Lebron.


    If all of this is true, then I can have some sympathy for Flip Saunders. He may have been doing as good of a job defensively with our roster as LB. On top of that, he may have been right to dump Ben Wallace, as our defense didn't suffer dramatically and our offense was very strong. Dumars may have been right to go with a more offensive coach to cope with the new officiating.

    We were a very good team over the past few years, and part of it may be that we rolled with the changes.
     
  6. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    I think the rule changes took place after the '05 Finals, not after the 04 chip.

    I think it has been the Pistons offense that has done them in during the Flip+ era. Their D was definitely good enough for them to win in all of Flip’s years. CLE has a good (maybe great) defensive team this year, but Orlando is scoring on them at will late in games. DET has been unable to this and it has caused their D to eventually buckle from the stress.

    I think prior to the ECF's these years the defenses they faced weren't as good, but more to the point the offenses did not have the dribble penetrators that they wound up facing in R3. At that point it became small runs of easy baskets against a scrambling D by their opponents versus DET looking in vain for a jump shot against a set D.
     
  7. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    :pound:Awesome

    I've changed my mind about Sheed. I want him to be resigned if we make a few big moves this summer. I wouldn't be opposed to a Boozer/Sheed FL or an Amare/Sheed FL.
     
  8. discotom

    discotom First Round Draft Pick

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    This may have been talked about, but isn't Gortat's contract up this year? He is ready for a starting roll, and probably wouldn't be a max contract.
     
  9. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Armygirl is in love with Gortat.
     
  10. NYPistonFan729

    NYPistonFan729 Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    Good player. Very skilled. Hardworker.
     
  11. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    :pound:People will be calling for his head in no time. Another mediocre role player . . .

    But then again let's just forget about all the times he was abused by 52 year old Antonio McDyess.
     
  12. Tha Locstah

    Tha Locstah First Round Draft Pick 1x Fantasy Champion

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    Did you look at the stats before replying? Who doesn't know that defense is a huge part of basketball?

    Defensive stats:

    Rebounds) Odom - 8.2, Sheed - 7.4
    Blocks) Odom - 1.3, Sheed - 1.3
    Steals) Odom - 1.0, Sheed - 0.9

    Sprry if I don't feel that Sheed is the lockdown defender he used to be, so by showing that he and Odom's stats are similar I'm pointing out that Sheed's not a "great" defender anymore more so than pointing out that Odom IS.
     
  13. armygirl

    armygirl Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    I am actually in love with you but don't tell anybody or let this get out on PF. lol.........
     
  14. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Don't be messing with the 52 year olds.
     
  15. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    Stats have nothing to do with Sheed's defensive impact. He's just fundamentally solid and smart.

    Odom is Mr. Inconsistent on both ends and has no discernible impact when he's off which is alot.

    Sheed can change a game. Odom can't.

    If Odom was consistent an argument could be made that he's a more viable option than Sheed, but his head is in the clouds more often than not.
     
  16. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    You're right. At 52, Dyess can still outplay half the bigs in the NBA. :)
     
  17. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Looking at Sheed's +/- compared to Odom's is pretty interesting.

    Per 100 possesions (of course).

    When Sheed was off the court, the Pistons gave up 110.2.
    When Odom was off the court, the Lakers gave up 110.2 (exact match).

    We scored 107.0 and they scored 108.1.


    So, a Sheedless Pistons was about the same as an Odomless Lakers this season.

    When each of these guys was on the court, both teams improved, but the Lakers to a much greater extent.

    Det's points allowed went from 110.2 to 107.5 while our scoring went up by 2 points.

    LAL's points allowed went from 110.2 to 102.2 while their scoring went up by about 10 points.



    The argument against would be that Odom's minutes were highly correlated with Kobe's... which they were.
     
  18. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    Considering the contrast between the teams this season, i don't put much weight in this.

    The Pistons were a mess (rotation, chemistry, line-up changes, etc) while the Lakers were on pace to win 60+ games. It's hard to make the comparison IMO b/c of that difference.
     
  19. Tha Locstah

    Tha Locstah First Round Draft Pick 1x Fantasy Champion

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    Sheed was a good defender in his day, I'll give you that. I can't seem to remember something though.......who was gaurding Horry? Oh yeah, Mr. Consistancy!!!

    I'm not and never was saying Odom is the best baller in the world but if he is so incosistant and Sheed is the rock of all that is D, why doesn't it show in the numbers? You'd think there would be SOMETHING tangeble to show for it.

    I beg to differ that Odom can't change a game. He's an excellent complimentary player. The Lakeshow wouldn't have made it this far without him. If your talking about "taking over a game", well then that may be the single greatest reason I've had it with Sheed.....all the potential in the world wraped up in 14 pts. and 8 boards a game. Dude could easily be a 20 and 10 guy but he settles.

    Remember, this whole discussion started by me saying I didn't feel that Sheed was the best FA PF available and that "I'd rather have Odom." That's still my opinion. For all the great things Sheed has done for the Pistons, he's always been capable of much more. Period.
     
  20. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    Sheed's main problem is that he phones it in if he doesn't like what's going on around him. Little things like BAD coaching and selfish play cause Sheed to check-out mentally.

    If Sheed played for Phil Jax in LA this year he'd be averaging 18 and 10 and the Lakers would be ROLLING through the Western Conference.
     

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