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Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by TaS, Oct 23, 2009.

  1. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    All indications pointed toward our defense being terrible this year...
    • Brought in a coach who has been an offensive coordinator
    • Lost Rasheed, one of the best defensive big men in the game
    • Lost Antonio Mcdyess, another smart, solid big man.
    • Gave away our 2 best young defensive players, Afflalo and Amir.
    • Acquired two free agents who are notoriously weak defenders
    • Don't have a 7 footer on the team
    • Have an overabundance of guards and a practical need to employ small ball
    • We traded Chauncey, the most sure handed PG in the league, who limited turnovers and transition scoring for our opponents
    • We have been starting a PG who's main weapon is the forced drive, which leaves us vulnerable to transitions on misses
    There is a big difference between talking about playing defense and playing defense. We don't have the players to get it done anymore. We can shoot close to 60% and lose a basketball game now. We can give up more points in a half than we did in an entire playoff game before.

    Defense costs Pistons in loss to Timberwolves - Daily Tribune: Breaking news coverage for southeastern Oakland County, Michigan

    Take it from Ben Gordon (our $11M/year bench player)
    To summarize his position,
    Terrible, can't get any worse, take plays off, have lapses, disastrous.


    Why has Joe abandoned his tried and true philosophy of building a team from the defense up? Does he know that the Pistons are going to move to Tulsa soon?
     
  2. MACKSnare519

    MACKSnare519 First Round Draft Pick

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    If the Pistons moved, I would personally start a riot... :mob-smiley2:

    Won't be to Tulsa through, Oklahoma already robbed Seattle of their franchise.
     
  3. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    I'm believeing that eventually we'll be OK. We had chances to really put that team away, but we couldn't get 3 or 4 stops to do it. It's weird, when we had great defensive teams, they could never put together 3 or 4 good offensive positions to put a team away.

    I think Stern has made it clear that he wants an NBA that resembles the Showtime days. Those championship teams gave up alot of points, but they were always able to come up with a few stops and a few buckets to get a win. We're going to give up alot of points, but we can't use that as our measuring stick. We need to see if this team can win ball games by putting together a few mins of really good defense at the right time during a game; if they can in 2 years they can be pretty special.
     
  4. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Great analysis TaS....you have to wonder what Joe is thinking and will he pull another first week trade as he did last year, but this one turns out to be positive instead of a negative?????? Either way it appears that for the first time EVER, my other local team LA Clippers, might be better than the Pistons...

    alas, I have already paid the first installment of my League Pass, so I will sit through this Piston rebuilding campaign and not be as disappointed as I was last year, but if they just totally stink like Ben Gordon says, then the next three installments will be paid under protest and duress... :yellowprison:
     
  5. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Every time is the right time to play good defense.

    Look at the teams that will be in the Conference Finals this year, they are all loaded and pretty defensively oriented:

    Lakers:
    Kobe/Artest/Odom/Gasol/Bynum

    Spurs:
    Parker/Ginobili/Jefferson/Dyess/Duncan

    Celtics:
    Rondo/Allen/Pierce/Sheed/Perkins

    Cleveland:
    West/Williams/Lebron/Varejao/Shaq/Ilgauskas/Powe/Moon
     
  6. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    TaS, no point in comparing us to any of those teams. We're going to struggle to make the playoffs this year. Those are all contenders.

    There is no question that defense is important and we won't be playing much defense.

    I'm hesitant to take much away from the preseason. Guys know the games and stats don't count. The coach is very new, and the team hasn't had a chance to come together on the road or under real competition. I don't think they will be this bad, but it could be years before we see another conference final. Maybe 3 or 4 years. Maybe 10.

    Just sayin. Enjoy the ball going in the hoop, because that is what we have to watch. :)
     
  7. aurora

    aurora Bench Warmer

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    To think that this is what Joe has come up with as a rebuilding effort and how he has spent at least some of the precious Chauncey/AI expiring contract money makes you really wonder. I mean I know it's early to be predicting doom and gloom, but this team looks worse to me than last year's team. Seriously, I am nostalgic already for last year's team. I have a collage I made of last year's roster on my wall. Every single roster member in an action shot. There are seven guys in that collage that are gone. That's half the roster!

    Sure, the AI experiment turned out to be a failure, but the Ben Gordon/Rip Hamilton experiment promises to be more of the same unless there is a trade. Ben Gordon had to backup several SGs in Chicago. And anyway what would that trade be for? Seriously, what is Rip Hamilton really worth? When what you really need is a defensive juggernaut on the lines of Ben Wallace in his prime only taller...where is that guy in exchange for the likes of Rip Hamilton and Kwame Brown? I don't know... unlike a few of you I haven't paid for my League Pass yet and I'm sorely tempted not to get it this year. But I love being in chat with the chat gang during the games. Also I can't watch AI trying to mount his unlikely comeback in Memphis of all places with three young selfish guards and Zach to compete for the ball with unless I have League Pass because National TV never shows Memphis (understandably). So I guess I'm down for the League Pass.

    I just wanted to weigh in that I find all the changes, every single one, including back to the AI trade, inexplicable and I think Joe is running the franchise into the ground. I really do. And if I want to watch "offense first" I'll watch the Phoenix Suns this year thank you very much. They do it quite a bit better, faster and much more "fun to watch." I'm sorely tempted to just watch my videotapes of the Pistons 2004-2005 season this year when Ben was in his prime and just live in denial all year. I swear Roscoe, this forum is what keeps me a Piston fan. It really does. You should be getting kickbacks from the organization for keeping our heads in the game!
     
  8. raxrets

    raxrets Team Captain

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    some forumites are sometimes hopless...
     
  9. aurora

    aurora Bench Warmer

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    Well if I was hopeless I wouldn't buy League Pass, watch the games, come to chat for every single game, purchase jerseys for way too much money, go to see the Pistons every time they are in Oakland and Sacramento for way too expensive seats considering their quality of play and check this forum about 40 times a day, would I?

    No hopeless is not the word. The word is: Fan.

    A fan who gets to be a fan the way she wants to be a fan. A fan who calls them the way she sees them and still wants the team to win even though she thinks the GM is clueless RIGHT NOW. A fan who hopes for better things in the future but never drinks the Kool-Aid.

    A FAN.
     
  10. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I wasn't really trying to compare us... as it is obvious that we are nowhere near them now. Just pointing out that the league hasn't gone razzle dazzle just because Stern may prefer it. If anything, the dominant teams seem to be purposefully acquiring defensive specialists and at a very least 2-way players. I think that Joe Dumars has something to do with that because Detroit (along with San Antonio) proved over the last decade that they way to consistently be a winner is to focus on defense first.

    This is exactly why I am doubting him right now. Why is he abandoning his own model when we saw it worked and when it's being copied by others?

    I understand that the nature of team sports and especially salary capped sports means that rebuilds are necessary. I can tolerate and enjoy a few terrible seasons if I think it is all for a good cause.

    But the part that I'm having trouble with now is that I don't like our foundation. I don't see how it points us toward the direction of the 4 teams that I showed in 3-5 years.

    Paying market price for offensive-only FA's at the start of a rebuilding process leads to what we have here... a team that will not be a winner, but will not be enough of a loser. Mediocrity for a prolonged period of time.

    I don't know the answer to this, but
    What do you think the Vegas odds would be on the Pistons ever winning another Championship with Joe Dumars?
     
  11. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Kimmie you are my Shero!!

    I am A FAN too. I am currently scheduling a business trip around the Pistons-Trailblazers game in Portland on November 18th, and checking Stubhub now for tickets even though I know in my heart this may be the first time in 7 years that I may walk out of an arena with the Pistons on the short end of a score.

    I have attended Pistons victories in LA (over the Clippers) six years in a row and one each on the road over the Magic, Mavs and Warriors. That is 9-0 with the PF road Karma. Unless this team's chemistry improves over the next three weeks and Brandon Roy is injured, we may not win....but the money will still be well spent because I am A FAN..
     
  12. raxrets

    raxrets Team Captain

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    I have no idea.

    For :flame:I need more than preseason and strong convince that things can go only worse.
     
  13. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I forgot to put KG on that Celtics team! :pound:


    That's when you know a team is good.
     
  14. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Well, I used to be able to get up higher than I can now, that's for sure. But I wouldn't say entirely hopless.
     
  15. Latinoking90

    Latinoking90 Bench Warmer

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    Joe is hoping that the team is good enough to score points so that they can be entertaining.

    But wow, if BG is saying that. Not much confidence.
     
  16. round

    round All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion

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    I actually look at it from the other point of view.... defense is effort, offence is skill... you can teach anybody to play defense for the most part if they want to.

    The fact that he's saying the defense is bad and needs to get better is a step in the right direction.. if he and other offensive only players buy in and learn to play def we will be better off then alot of the wagon jumpers will believe....

    If they play enough defense to win games 110-105... its going to count as much on the win loss sheet as the 90-85 wins do.
     
  17. NYPistonFan729

    NYPistonFan729 Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    I getting League Pass too....i can't help myself.
     
  18. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    That is exactly how I feel. Just as early as last season folks were pointing out the Lakers inability to defend, but by the end of the year they bought in and became decent defenders. Since when were Pierce and Allen considered to be great defenders, they weren't until they bought in to KG's mentality. DEFENSE can be taught, this team has players athletic enough to become very respectable on the defensive end of the floor.
     
  19. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Good D is a skill, same as good O. There is a lot to it, and no, you can't just all the sudden become a good defender by effort. Effort helps, but years of experience and good teachers is needed to really be a good defender. A dedication to studying opposing players and their tendencies is needed. Not to mention you have to have the physical abilities. Height helps. Quickness helps. Speed helps. Strength helps. A great alertness level helps. (In other words, a great scorer may be great at his own mechanics, but yet very bad at reading and reacting to what someone else is doing.)

    Lets take just one t hing, a guard fighting thru picks to stay on his guy. If you are good at it in the NBA, it took you many years of learning and effort in making yourself better at it. If you have not been working on it, and are not good at it, it could take you three years to get good at it. Or maybe, if you are simply a step slow, or a bit slow in reading where someone is going, or weak physically, you just will never get good at it.

    In sum, to take a fine defensive player, and and think that player is expendable - because hey anyone can be taught to defend - is just plain wrong. Good defensive players should be just as highly regarded as good offensive players. You need both to win in the NBA.
     
  20. max

    max All-Star

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    I am sticking to my guns from a couple of years ago when I wrote that I would rather follow a .500 team that tried every night than a 50 win team who I knew would never with the title due to lack of effort and personality issues.

    As long as they are trying to get better and there is plan in place then I will be happy. With that said - I think we should at least wait until 20 or so games in before we write them off.

    Only questionable moves to me are losing CB and on a much lower scale losing Afflallo. I don't think Sheed and Dyess have much left in the tank and you have a right to your opinions on Amir. And thing with Sheed is you never know how it will play out in the post-season since a lot of his philosophical differences with the coaching staff don't surface until then - when you need him the most. I fully expect CB to win his 8th consecutive showing in the conf finals.
     

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