eeeetroit basketball

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by TaS, Oct 23, 2009.

  1. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Ben didn't get good calls because of his fro.

    He earned his reputation by playing great defense for a long period of time. After a while, refs started giving him the benefit of the doubt and they only called the fouls when they actually saw them... which is a huge luxury to have in the NBA, sadly.
  2. House Dressing

    House Dressing Bench Warmer

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    It's not like our Defense was any good last year either. And it's not like we won a title with our "great" Defense in the last half decade.
  3. House Dressing

    House Dressing Bench Warmer

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    If there were great defenders available as free agents this last off-season, I'm guessing Joe would have got them and everyone on this board would be crying about where our points are going to come from.
  4. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    That's very true. We played at a snail's pace IMO. We played safe, boring, methodical ball, which isn't good enough to win big, but it is good enough to win often.

    I thought we sucked on defense last year.

    Right. In fact, I would say Larry's teams were a lot more aggressive offensively than the teams we watched the last 4 seasons.
  5. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Year/ Off/ Def/ Result
    2004/ 18th/ 2nd/ Championship
    2005/ 17th/ 3rd/ Finals loss (lost to Spurs: 8th/ 1st)
    2006/ 4th/ 5th/ ECF loss (lost to Heat: 7th/ 9th)
    2007/ 6th/ 7th/ ECF loss (lost to Cavs: 18th/4th)
    2008/ 6th/ 4th/ ECF loss (lost to Celtics: 10th/ 1st)
    2009/ 21st/ 16th/ R1 loss (lost to Cavs: 4th/ 3rd)

    Our results are correlated with defensive rating, but not really with offensive rating. We had a better offense in '05 through '08 than we did in the Championship year, but the defense wasn't as good. Our offense in 2004 was below average. Our next best chance came in 2005, when we still had a below average offense.

    In each year (except for the 2006 loss to the Heat), we lost to a team that had a better defense than us, not necessarily a better offense. Also note that each year, the teams that beat us had better defenses than they did offenses.

    It is just more important. Defensive role players also tend to be more underrated and cheaper, so it is a more achievable strategy... which is why I think Joe was able to pull it off in an undesirable market.

    That is why I think we are going down the wrong path. If we couldn't get it done with a top 5 offense AND defense in 2006, then what are we trying to do? It's not like Joe is going to be able to get us the top offense in the league through any FA strategy. For that, you need the Kobes and Lebrons of the world... which usually involves tanking for multiple years. And even if we were able to get the #1 offense, we'd be toast without a top 10 defense to match. However, if we have a top 3 defense, then we can be average or below average offensively and still contend.
  6. max

    max All-Star

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    Thanks for the stats but it does not account for why they always chocked in game 6 of the ECF. It was a mental wall that they could not overcome.
  7. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I'm showing you. The reason we choked is that we were going up against better defenses. Same reason the Lakers choked against us in 2004.

    In 80% of our playoff losses since our title, we lost to the team that was better defensively. The Heat were an abberation statistically, but if you look at the playoffs only that year and ignore the regular season, they were arguably the best defensive team. They allowed an opposing FG% of .429, which made them the stingiest defense in the playoffs. Detroit was the 9th best defensive team in the playoffs that year with a .464 fg% allowed.
  8. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    We went up against better defenses, or teams figured out how to stop Tay, Rip and CB in the clutch?
  9. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Statistically, they were better defenses.

    But just to look at specifics, here is how Tay, Rip, and CB did when we lost to the Heat in the 2006 ECF.

    Tay- averaged 16.2 points per game vs. his ave of 14.1 that season.
    He grabbed 6.2 rebounds per game vs. his ave of 4.2 that season.

    Rip- Averaged 20.7 points per game vs. his ave of 20.1 that season.

    CB- Averaged 18.0 points per game vs. his ave of 18.5 that season.
    He dished out 7.2 assists per game vs. his ave of 8.6.


    So, our big three held up in the ECF and they found other ways to stop us. We held them to one game in the 70's and they held us to 2 games in the 70's. 80% of the experts picked the Pistons to win the series. Dwyane Wade came alive defensively that year in a big way.


    ... also, he had 103 free throws in the ECF, which still bugs me.
  10. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Per 36 please. Their minutes all went up in the playoffs.
  11. OLD SKOOL HQ

    OLD SKOOL HQ All-Star

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    stats.....:cold:brrrrrr....stats:cold:
  12. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Just to rub it in and continue the Heat championship charade, Wade shot 75-97 FT vs Mavs in the finals including 37-46 in the two deciding games 5 & 6 when Stern got mad at Marc Cuban:)

    I am thinking that Wade shot more FT in the 2006 playoff series than Darko has shot in his whole career. :MusicBigGrin:
  13. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Right, and overall scoring average for the games went down. You'd have to adjust for both.


    Alls I'm sayings is that if you allow me to place a wager on the #1 defensive team this year winning the Championship, I'd feel pretty good about the bet. I have no idea which team that will be, but I know they will be good.

    If you give me the #1 offensive team, they could be Ok, or they could miss the playoffs.
  14. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I can't argue with that. I just don't think we were as good (in hindsight) as we thought we were. Particularly in 07, 08 and 09.

    I'm guilty of this.

    I'd like to add one thing into your mix however. Winning a title, excluding San Antonio, is usually accomplished by a great defensive team, that can score 99+ PPG. I insist we kept stalling out because our personnel and game plan was based around trying to play 87-84 basketball every night, and in the playoffs, we simply couldn't score when the games tightened up. We didn't have a killer instinct, and after 06, never really put our foot on the throat of our opponents early and cruise to those 5 or 6 games a year where Darko gets 20 mins of garbage time and expands his mythology.
  15. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    You are arguing that our pace was too slow.

    I don't know how it compares to others, but I'll go check...

    comparing the Pistons' pace to the Champs' pace... or runner up if we happened to be the champs.


    2004- Pistons averaged 87 possessions/game.
    The Lakers averaged 92/game.

    2005- Spurs averaged 89
    the Pistons averaged 88

    2006- Heat averaged 91
    the Pistons averaged 87

    2007- Spurs average 89
    the Pistons averaged 88

    2008- Celtics averaged 91
    the Pistons averaged 87

    2009- Lakers averaged 94
    the Pistons averaged 87


    Average pace for NBA Champs during this time period = 90.16
    Average pace for the Pistons during this time period = 87.33

    Man, were we consistent. Billups/Rip/Tay/Wallace/Wallace played at the same pace during the grind it out 2004 season as Stuckey/AI/Rip/Tay/Sheed did last year? That's disturbing.
  16. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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  17. max

    max All-Star

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    Good points. No they were not as good as we wanted them to be, lost a lot of key players after 04. Take out the inexcusable Cleveland loss in 07 and the losses to the Heat and Celts would not look as bad.

    Part of the slow pace was probably due to all the extra passes. They were a great passing team. Most teams don't like to risk multiple passes like that. The crisp passing is probably the thing I will miss the most.
  18. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    What is depressing is how our pace was so low.

    A slower pace means less mistakes, but it also means less room for error. The other good teams make few mistakes as well, but play at a faster pace. I am convinced that over 7 games, those extra 2 or 3 possessions a game add up.
  19. max

    max All-Star

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    Yes that's one thing - it will be fun watching all the fast breaks. But prepare for a lot of TO's at 1st.

    Slow pace is all relative right? If they are slow then the other team slows down and losses possessions as well. Their point differential was usually 2nd or 3rd in the league.

    I used to like they way they would methodically carve up the other teams defense. When they wanted to. Too bad it never worked in game 6 of the ECF.
  20. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    You need a very accurate and minute scale for a high/low thermometer.

    The problems arises when you level out the high and low after-the-fact. You spread this out and get summations...accurate to-be-sure, but you miss the sweats and goosebumps that reach out to adjust in the phases of extremes.

    Much depends on the valleys and elevation levels. Most statistics are gathered under safety conditions (the regular season) and foreign territory understanding Heraclitus' deep comment that, "war is the father of reactions against extremes".

    The level march of Western Europe was an unrestricted road to victory until Hitler met the Russian frozen tundra. Vietnam had the jungle canopy and a three country zoological environment. Iraq has the sands and dry heat shifting the boundaries. Afghanistan has the stability of mountains and respective conditions thereof: if you can go out, then you go deep and wait.

    Pick your poison.

    In playoffs, you must bend and feel more comfortable than your opponent, on how you tolerate the environment of extremes.

    All know that there is no neutral court. The winner has adjusted to what?

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