Expectations and acquisitions

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by J-Train, Jan 19, 2012.

  1. TWOTIMESRALPHI

    TWOTIMESRALPHI Team Captain 3x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,000
    Likes Received:
    121
    Location:
    Vienna
    I absolutely agree. Darko could have been a great player back then. Unfortunately, the mixture of adaption-problems, Larry Brown and the surroundings of joining an already great team didn't work out as they could/should have.​
     
  2. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,808
    Likes Received:
    2,937
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    How is being better than 15 other NBA teams a badge of honor?
    That basically means that your ceiling is somewhere in the neighborhood of being a .500% team and maybe locking down a #8 seed each year. What has Carmelo Anthony ever won in the NBA? What has he ever come close to winning? I guess the real evidence is: Why aren't all of the top-level NBA free agents lining up to play with Melo in New York?

    The Knicks are the WORST team in the league when you factor in how much they spend compared to how much they win and Carmelo Anthony is a really big part of that.
     
  3. Mogilny

    Mogilny All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,028
    Likes Received:
    1,256
    Is he really one of the best pure scorers in the league? His PPG seems to be more because of alot of shooting than being an effective scorer. He's clearly behind other SF stars like James and Durant in eFG% and TS% careerwise and just looking at the most recent seasons he's miles away. And James isn't even considered to be that great of a scorer according to "experts". I mean, Melo's clearly got an awesome skillset when it comes to scoring but he doesn't seem to be up there among the absolute best when it comes to the actual scoring.
     
  4. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,027
    Likes Received:
    1,125
    Gender:
    Male
    Thats a bit of a non-sequiter. Your argument was not Carmelo is only worth an 8th seed. It was that he makes any team, the worst. Which is quite simply false. I'm not arguing that Melo is a brilliant player. I call him marshmelo for a reason. He is soft and flabby. But he isn't the worst player in the world, and as far as I am concerned, he is no worse than Kobe.

    I don't know what the Knicks spend per win, I am assuming that it is a significant amount of money, and would definately be very high on the list. But what about the Bobcats? With their spend of around $57m and only 11 wins, that kinda blows the second part of your statement out of the water too. Again, yes they are bad, but they are not the worst by a significant margin.

    The top free agents are not lining up to play with him, because they know the Knicks can't afford them because they are already well into lux tax. But the reality here is not that Melo is terrible, it is that the team as a whole is terrible. Melo and Stat can't play together, and they don't have a point gaurd worth talking about. And Raymond "Bucket of KFC" Felton doesn't change that story. That team was built poorly and they are paying the price. To be frank, I think that Amare is the problem, not Melo.

    I am referring to his skillset specifically, as he can't play defence and doesn't know how to catch the ball off the backboard. Maybe that is why he never passes?

    I probably worded that wrong. He has the potential/talent/skills to be deadly.

    Heh, anyone who doesn't think that LBJ is a good scorer is on drugs. Career average of 27ppg kinda makes that just look stupid.
     
  5. TWOTIMESRALPHI

    TWOTIMESRALPHI Team Captain 3x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,000
    Likes Received:
    121
    Location:
    Vienna
    is Joe D going to sign ANYONE at all? Or is the roster all set
     
  6. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Messages:
    4,796
    Likes Received:
    1,521
    Gender:
    Male
    Joe doesn't have any cash left to sign anyone. He can only trade now or use the MLE. I'd rather he stay put instead of bringing some 2nd class journeyman in.
     
  7. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Messages:
    4,796
    Likes Received:
    1,521
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Melo would be a better player today if Pistons had drafted him. He was a spoiled little brat from the get-go and he went to a lottery team where he became a phenomenon that people worshipped which did wonders for his already bloated ego. With the Pistons, he would've been surrounded by guys that would win a championship and an alpha dog of a coach. He would've been put in his place early in his career and maybe, just maybe, he would've been a more mature player today. The kid has talent, but it looks like he never had (or listened to) a good trainer.
     
  8. round

    round All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,710
    Likes Received:
    368
    Location:
    Michigan/Glasgow
    I would say that Melo would be a much better player if he had Brown teaching him for 2 years, but also think that we wouldn't have won our title in 04... by 06 to many variables to even guess at would could have been. So I'm happy with the direction we took.

    I also would say that a slight adjustment should be made to the comment that Melo would make any team worse, he has way to much talent to say that... but I would say that any team that has a legit chance for the title would be worse for having him on the team at this point. He just has become to much of a volume shooter to get his, and hasn't shown a consistent effort on the def end of the court to win in the playoffs. I do think he has the talent to be that winning team player, but wonder if he has the abilty to change his approach at this point in his career.
     
  9. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    Messages:
    15,613
    Likes Received:
    3,594
    Location:
    Michigan
    That didn't seem to work for Darko...
     
  10. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,808
    Likes Received:
    2,937
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Seriously dude?
    ...You're comparing freaking Carmello Anthony to Kobe?
    They're both chuckers but that's where the similarities begin and end.


    They were #2 in the league behind the T-Wolves last year. Here's an article from the best source of basketball research on the planet:
    Worst NBA Teams For The Money - Forbes

    I totally agree with you that Melo has amazing talent. He's a helluva scorer and can even put up solid rebounding and assist numbers anytime he wants to. Basketball is a team game though and despite all of Anthony's amazing abilities, he manages to figure out a way to make teams worse. He will NEVER (ever) be an NBA champion unless it's a situation where he becomes a player-for-hire late in his career and rides the coat tails of an actual star.
     
  11. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    17,640
    Likes Received:
    2,974
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicaaago
    Melo 10-12 from the 3-point line against Nigeria. 156-73... ouch. US team with 29 3's. So, if they only made 3's and didn't score inside the arc or from the free throw line, they would have won, 87-73.

    And Nigeria starts 2 NBA players, which is more than some other Olympic teams.

    Good game from Diogu.
     
  12. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,027
    Likes Received:
    1,125
    Gender:
    Male
    No it isn't. They both have very low assist rates, play poor defense are not good teammates. The only difference is that Kobe has a bunch of rings because of Shaq and Phil Jackson. Melo is just less competitive than Kobe.



    I don't like to contest the holy writ words of Forbes often, but when I do, it's because they are wrong.

    It is quite literally impossible to have a worse win share of salary than the Bobcats. They paid circa $6m a win in salaries. The Knicks pay out roughly $75m in salaries and had what, a 40 win season? Lets be generous and call it $2m a game. The Pistons were worse than that. I would hazard a guess that article is based on the total cost of the team rather than just salaries.

    And again, with New York, its not Melo's fault. He isn't the worst player on that team. I stand by it, that if Melo had a real PG to play with, he would be a lot better. NYK need to drop STAT and pick up a PG. Melo makes his team bad because all he was ever taught was isolation, and because he is the best ballhandler on the team, he ends up taking the ball up the court. Where do you think that is going to end?
     
  13. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    12,779
    Likes Received:
    1,769
    Location:
    Rancho Cucamonga, CA
    Nine years after the draft and I still think the Pistons would have had at least 2 or 3 rings during the 04-08 run if they drafted Melo, Wade or Bosh. Even if it had been the Melo-man, LB would have held him in check and the players would have backed him up. So a back to back in 04 and 05 was not out of the question.

    The Pistons had the best record in 06, but not sure if Flip would have been able to keep a reign on Melo the way LB would have, so he could have been a loose cannon by then trying to out gun Dwade in the those finals and instead of losing in six, maybe we got swept or we could have swept the Heat.

    Its all speculation, but most people polled to this day would agree that any of the guys drafted 3-6 including Kaman would have made this team better than they were and they could have gotten to the finals during all three of the Flip post season years.
     
  14. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,808
    Likes Received:
    2,937
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Saying "Melo is less competitive than Kobe" is like saying that Whoopi Goldberg is less smokin' hot than Kate Upton.

    I can't argue that Kobe has a low assist rate but there is a different reason for this than with Melo. Kobe doesn't pass due to the fact that he feels strongly that him taking the shot is the best option for the Lakers. A lot of the time he's right since the two other main players on the team; Bynum (brainless) and Gasol (heartless) often fail at getting the job done in key moments. Kobe is a chucker because he wants to win. He'd prolly defer to someone else (Nash perhaps?) if he thought that it would serve his interest of winning.

    Melo doesn't pass the rock because he's an idiot. It's all about Melo and very little about winning. Melo plays the game with the goal of scoring points. Kobe plays the game with the goal of winning. Don't get me wrong, BOTH of these guys are selfish chuckers and are painful to watch at times. ...They just have different reasons for being that way.

    Regarding the other end of the floor; Kobe's been first team All-Defense 12 times in his career (9 first-team selections). He was on the 2nd team last season.

    I agree with you that a few other variables are likely factored in there to skew the argument a little.
    (It was Forbes though and I couldn't resist.)


    I agree that Melo isn't the worst player on the team. He has amazing basketball skills. He just needs to read everything ever written by John Wooden regarding life lessons and basketball. Anthony is a jackass and that translates to him playing selfish, ineffective hoops.

    Putting a good PG next to Melo would be pointless and would likely be the worst thing you could do. You're better off using cap resources on guys who can rebound, play defense and block shots. Melo doesn't move without the ball or score off of passes so what in the heck is a PG gonna do? If I was going to attempt to build around Melo, I'd try and find a defensive PG who can lockdown opposing players and get some steals. -Someone who's best skills are D'ing up and not turning the ball over. Having a scoring/passing PG along side Melo is a waste of time. If anything, the Knicks should drop Melo (not Stat) and pick up a PG. Stoudimire thrives on good PG play.

    [To everyone else, sorry for hyjacking this thread; We should prolly get back to talking about "Expectations & Aquasitions". I'm just happy to be talking about basketball with Panda in July. These are the dog days of summer and I miss discussing hoops!] :brick:
     
    The Panda likes this.
  15. Mogilny

    Mogilny All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,028
    Likes Received:
    1,256
    My impression from all the articles I've read in Forbes and Nikkei:

    I don't see Kobe defering to anyone during the end of a game 7, he likes making game-winning shots more than winning. For him it's all about his own personal glory over anything else. He's got a burning desire to win, but he wants the win to be his and noone elses. He's not interested in passing an open Steve Kerr, he rather take that 25 percenter.

    Jordan was in it for the winning.
    Kobe is in it for the glory.
    Melo is in it to show off.
     
    BallDon'tLie likes this.
  16. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,808
    Likes Received:
    2,937
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    I can agree with that.
    I get a kick out of people who try and say that Kobe is/was better than MJ. It's an obsurd statement but at least a comparisson can be made.
    Melo doesn't belong anywhere rmotely near this conversation.
     
  17. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2006
    Messages:
    12,306
    Likes Received:
    1,502
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lake Elmo
    Melo is the poor man's Dominique Wilkins...............
     
  18. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2006
    Messages:
    6,695
    Likes Received:
    1,657
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Parts Unknown
    Didn't Melo lead the previously putrid Nugs to the Playoffs his rookie year in a stacked WC? That should count for something.
     
  19. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,808
    Likes Received:
    2,937
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    I remember reading shortly after the Knicks got bounced from the playoffs that Carmelo Anthony has the worst playoff winning percentage of any player in the last 20 years. I'm too lazy to look it up but I gotta believe that it's accurate.

    - On a completely unrelated note:
    Melo scored 37 points in 14 minutes yesterday against Nigeria.
    ...that's pretty impressive considering he was facing Ike Diogu!
     
  20. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2006
    Messages:
    12,306
    Likes Received:
    1,502
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lake Elmo
    His playoff record of 16-36 .308 winning percentage is the worst in history.
    This is for players who have played in at least 50 playoff games.
    That qualifies him for giant turd status.

    Remember that 10 of those wins came in a single season drive to the conference finals.
    He got knocked out in the first round in his 6 other seasons with Denver.
    He is 0-7 with the Knicks in the playoffs,
     

Share This Page