Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by J-Train, Jan 19, 2012.
I finally watched Moneyball last night. I think Joe D should see this movie.
Well, there's nothing I can say to someone who would rather dump two solid guys for two D-League guys with the hopes of winning the lottery every year for the next three years. I, for one, would like to see the Pistons make a playoff run in '12/'13, or at the very least '13/14.
Cap space does us absolutely no good in the summer of '12. Nobody who we would want, would actually want to sign with us. Ditto for the summer of '13. Bad teams with cap space get the privilege of signing bench players to eight figure deals (I'm looking at you CV and Gordon). This means that the very first time cap space is of any value is the summer of '14. This is when Stuckey, CV, and Gordon all come off the cap. If Stuckey works out, then we can re-sign him. Prince will only have the one year remaining on his contract (one year too many), which becomes an asset. My guess is that he's moved before then. In short, the Stuckey deal was a perfect "make sense" deal, and Tay's deal was only a poor decision in that it should have been a three year deal instead of four.
Stuckey and Prince deals aren't going to hurt us. If Joe goes out and extends Maxiell or Bynum, then it's time to worry.
Are there any young wings that anyone likes coming up in the next couple of years?
I want Joe to build a good team.
You want Joe to remodel a bad team.
...that's where we differ.
Have a nice day.
Don't remember stating that I wanted top lottery picks for 3 years. After this draft, we should be ready to look at other options. Having cash allows more options. Besides.........I'd like to know who will be our trading partner for these guys the next three years. Please list teams......thanks.
JaVale Mcgee is a restricted FA. I would toss $8 mill his way and see if the Wiz match. http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/16512/javale-mcgee-revolutionizes-defense
Imagine Mcgee taking Daye and CV along for the ride. Moose would chew his mouthpiece sumthin' fierce.
Damn, 8 million?! You're talking Stuckey money now.
At times, Mcgee reminds me of Darko; he's seems completely clueless on the court. Unlike Darko, however, he seems to be able to really contribute despite his bufoonery. He leads the league in blocks, and recently put on a slam dunk clinic against the Pistons.
He likes to alley-oop to himself off the glass (serious bufoonery):
Unlike Darko, he doesn't seem to get blocked by the rim:
I've rarely seen a player so anxious to play defense. And since Coach Frank stresses the importance of defense, I think it would be a great fit.
$7 mil right there. On top the car.
Just saw ESPN's Future Power Rankings on ESPN on XBL. The Pistons were ranked 28th. Oops.
You don't need to get the best FA's available. You can go for the young Billups, Hamilton, Ben Wallace types. Get guys who play defense, are tough, and who have a hunger to prove themselves. Those guys will go anywhere.
It's actually a good way to filter the softies. If a guy doesn't want to come to Detroit even though we are the high bidder, that is probably a guy who is looking to ride somebody else's coattails or is more interested in partying than winning.
Agree that Stuckey is the obstacle in Pistons' way to top of lottery.
I want to take a look at the 2008 draft. We really struck out in it, but it has turned out to be a very deep and talented pool of players, especially big men.
Pick #- name (keep in mind, I'm leaving out all of the guards and small SF's... I left in Detroit's picks though)
10- Brooks Lopez
12- Jason Thompson
14- Anthony Randolph
15- Robin Lopez
21- Ryan Anderson
29- DJ White (pre-traded to OKC)
32- Walter Sharpe (DET- dud)
35- DeAndre Jordan
36- Omar Asik
37- Mbah A Moute
46- Trent Plaisted (DET- dud)
59- Deron Washington (DET- dud)
Detroit drafted DJ White with the 29th pick and traded him to Seattle for Plaisted and Sharpe. Those 2 studs ended up scoring 8 points combined in the NBA.
Detroit drafted Washington with the 59th pick. On 8/10/09 we signed him to a partially guaranteed 2-year contract. On 10/26/09, we waived him and opted to go with a 14 man roster instead of a 15 man roster.
So, we got 3 guys and 8 points out of this draft.
At the 29th spot, Joe could have gone with Pekovic, Jordan, Asik, a Moute, or Erden. A lot of foreigners in that grouping, so maybe he was unfamiliar with them. Even DJ White, our initial pick, would have been serviceable. He's doing OK.
Pekovic is the one who is really coming on strong lately though- especially after the injury to Darko.
(Per 36- since Pekovic has only been getting heaving minutes in the last 12 games or so)
Stat: Pekovic/ Monroe
Pts: 18.3/ 18.4
Reb: 10.5/ 10.8
Blks: 0.9/ 0.6
FG: .630/ .530
These 2 are scoring and rebounding at exactly the same rate and Pek is doing it on less shot attempts and he's rebounding next to Kevin Love (so not many left for him).
He's under contract this year and next at $4.3 and 4.6M. Also, MN still has love for $4.6M this year before they resigned him for a longer term deal.
That is a ton of production coming out of PF/C for under $10M per year combined.
My long winded point is that there are big men to be had that can pair with Monroe throughout the draft... Joe just has to go for it. They will appear more raw, they'll come from the overseas, and there is a chance that they'll be big stiffs. Ibaka was drafted at #24 and he's had two 10 block games this season. It is so easy to get 2nd round draft picks that it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to stockpile them and sprinkle them around on random centers in the next few drafts.
Wouldn't the Pistons need cap space to make McGee an offer?
Let's say things work out perfectly for the Pistons this year and they end up with Anthony Davis as people seem to want. (I don't even know who he is.) They could be heading into next year with those 3 and cap space to do anything they want with to add around them if it works out. Free agents or trades. That would be pretty good to me.
@ TaS - The Pistons would have drafted one of those '08 bigs had any of those guys thought to bring Joe some popcorn while he was scouting them. They got to show that they deserve to be Pistons.
In the instance of players like this; more often than not, all you have to offer them is some playing time and a significant role on the team. If it's one thing the Pistons have to offer, it's playing time.
First off, I'm not sure I understand this quote. You're implying (or I'm inferring) that going to Detroit proves that a player wants to win. What about the Pistons right now says "come here and win?"
Secondly, my bigger issue is with the first paragraph. "Guys who play defense (lowest opp. PER on the team), are tough, and who have a hunger to prove themselves" perfectly describes Will Bynum. The league is full of guys like Will Bynum. I was under the impression that nobody on this board wants Will Bynum to be playing. Am I missing something?
Hardcore fans seem to get so wrapped up in the immeasurable little things like heart and toughness and hustle, that they forget that you need players that can actually put the ball in the basket, that can pass well, that don't make big mistakes. All the heart and grit and toughness in the world doesn't make you a champion - you need talent. As Americans we keep getting fed the notion that if we work hard enough we can be whatever we want. But all that doesn't turn Bynum into the 6'10" PF Detroit needs. It doesn't give Maxiell the elbows and coordination to shoot a free throw, or Daye control over those mini-adreneline rushes that lead to his turnovers, or any number of D-Leaguers the ability to play in the league. Yes, there are players that can make a name playing defense - Hunter and Wallace were two. But in looking at those guys we ignore the extraordinary physical gifts they have that just can't be taught or learned (Hunter's quickness to play three inches away from the opposing point guard and the cognitive processing speed that allowed him to predict where the ball was going to be to bounced next, or Ben Wallace's insanely quick hops combined with his natural sense of timing, athleticism, and core strength) and forget that without other hardworking guys on their team that were capable of scoring enough to offset those players' offensive limitations (Billups, Prince, Sheed, and Hamilton), those guys' defensive prowess would not have helped the team win anything.
Yes, work ethic and heart and toughness up and down your roster are requirements for success in this league, but almost every player that gets to this level is in the 99.9th percentile of all that already (other than the 7-footers that just drift through a career because they hit the genetic jackpot). We look at a player like Lin or Wallace and think that there must be a few guys that if just given the chance, one chance, to show what they could do, they could really make something of themselves. The reality is that those guys are insanely rare and just happen to be in the right system at the right time, which is why they are such great stories when they do come along. The season isn't long enough to give all those guys a real chance, and it's an insult to guys currently on the roster that have worked their butts off and shown that they are superior players already to have to sit on the bench and watch a turnstile GM rotate auditions through the lineup.
These 15 guys are teammates, and that stands for something. Imagine if, in high school, your coach just keep bringing up JV players and their minutes kept cutting into your playing time. What would the team's reaction to that have been like? That "We Are Marshall" attitude goes a much longer way toward building a championship team than a bunch of D-Leaguers hogging the ball during their 10-day contracts and getting completely overwhelmed by the pressures of trying to crash course an offensive and defensive system and fit into the team identity enough to keep the GM from cutting them for the next tryout player. Yeah, it's fun as hell to watch, but it's just gum - once it loses its flavor you're on to the next piece without having gained any nutrition from it.
All of that doesn't take away from the fact that Prince was signed for too long, or that Gordon is overpaid, or whatever. But the time to build a team is in the offseason. That's when you tell your guys that they are the soldiers you are going to war with, that you believe in them as a team. Those D-leaguers are there for injuries, and that's how and when you give them tryouts, because that's when the players can accept a new guy into the tribe. Otherwise you're smashing any semblance of team unity or pride by implying to the guys that the team isn't good enough, even if everyone else in the known universe can recognize that the team isn't good enough. As a player, you have to know that your coach and your teammates have faith in you. We as fans think that our opinion matters, but the reality is that it doesn't, not to those guys. It isn't until they keep losing that they start to question themselves and each other, and that's when that "we're not good enough" crap starts to become a distraction. When players don't have anything to play for, when their hard work isn't rewarded, when they don't feel like they are part of a real team, then they give up. That's not championship basketball.
I liked the post with the soap dish better............
I'm just saying that at our stage, we need to get guys before they are in the mindset of chasing a Championship by going to a team that has better players on it already. Most of the time, those players have already peaked and you'll be overpaying for them. They are short term solutions to reach a short term goal. And if a guy doesn't want to come to Detroit because the nightlife isn't LA, Miami, or NY, then he's probably doing us a favor by turning his nose up at us. We need to be value shoppers in free agency until we reach a tipping point. The Lions, Tigers, and Wings are all in a position to overpay to get the perfect missing pieces. But the Pistons need guys who aren't yet fully proven and who would relish the opportunity to show what they can do.
As for the example you bring up, I would disagree with the statement that "guys who play defense" perfectly describes Will Bynum. He's only played 143 minutes this year. He may try hard on D and he may be good for his size, but he's probably the 9th or 10th best defender on the team. I do like what he brings to the table though considering he went from being undrafted to putting up some crazy offensive performances for the team. He's like a mini microwave. The problem is that we're paying him almost as much as Jerebko and more than Monroe. Joe just overpaid when he didn't need to do so.
Joe switched his mindset in about 2006 and went with a coach that focused on offense way more than defense. Then Joe started looking for players who could create their own and score to take advantage of the new emphasis in the league. The more Joe implemented his new vision, the worse we got. I like his old vision and wasn't yet bored with it like he was.
This is what happened (judging from Rip's comments) when Chauncey was traded and Stuckey was handed the controls. It upset the chemistry and destroyed the team.
Planking is hard. That's some core strength right there.
One of the guys we are "going to war with" spends his time planking, tweeting, and breaking his own ankles in his sleep. Another guy never passes the ball to his teammates (you remember how awesome it is playing with that guy), and a third soldier specializes in shooting, but doesn't take the shot.
I get what you are saying, and I think in most cases it would hold true. Unfortunately, our team has a couple of great prospects, a few guys who will do for right now, and a few clowns. I don't think there is any amount of coaching or buying in that would make this group a championship team, or for that matter would make them truly competitive.
I'm not necessarily advocating for a rotating cast of D-league players, but I would be happier with Capp Spayce and his friend High Pick right now, because I think they could make better long term contributions to the team.
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