Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by himat, Sep 27, 2005.
Like the chinesse proberv says: " A picture is better than a 1000 words"
I definitely don't agree with pigeon holing Ben back into only getting alley oops and rebounding. That was the same mistake The Cola made and that did nothing but tick Ben off. The best thing that ever happened to Ben was LB and Woods working with Ben to improve his offensive abilities and Ben has shown great strides each year with work.
It would be a big Cola sized mistake to then go back and say, "OK, you just rebound and we'll toss you an 'oop' every now and then." Ben will only be able to out-jump and out-muscle people for so long. When his age begins to show, you will want him to have develop some extended level of offensive skill in order to remain valuable at the money he's probably going to cost us once he's resigned.
I liked the fact that we went to him to start games. It gets him going on both ends of the floor and keeps the defense honest a la #12. Ben himself said he's not just a defensive specialist, he's a "basketball player." So, to go back to limiting him in what he's allowed to do on the floor will only hinder his overall development and put us back to playing 4 on 5. No, thank you.
what i meant was that instead of drawing up a play where Ben is isolated in the post or isolated on the wing to take his man off the dribble (like LB did), i'd much rather Flip draw up plays that help Ben get easier points (such as pick/roll plays that lead to alley oops).
i've got no problem with Ben/Chauncey or Ben/Arroyo in a two man game, with the pick/roll. it just drove me insane when we'd isolate Ben in the post for a one-on-one play.
Ben's big strength over other centers is his quickness, not his offensive skills. i just can't imagine Ben's offensive getting better at this stage in his career. we all know he works on his FT shooting, but it just hasn't gotten better.
also, Flip confirmed what i suspected before: Minnesota has been in the top 3 or so in team assists per game and he mentioned they were among the leaders in fewest TO's per game.
we all know that the Pistons steam roll opponents when our assists are high and our TO's are low.
That's where we'll have to agree to disagree. I think it was beneficial to Ben AND the team to have him improve his offensive abilities and become somewhat of a threat offensively when other teams tried to put their worst defender on Ben or leave him altogether.
I never cringed or wanted to crawl under the couch as others have put it, just because he didn't have the graceful touch of a swan shot to rain down on opponents. He was effective enough with getting the ball to the basket or drawing fouls on bad defenders that his growth as an offensive player was more than acceptable and actually refreshing to me. I LIKED having Ben isolated from time to time.
I'm tired of teams that don't improve their players overall game and just looking at them in terms of only using them to do the one thing they do well. Your team improves from year to year when you force your players to expand their games. Just bringing in young guys every year and handing them playing time isn't the way to do it. That's how you become the Portland Trailblazers. Also, it isn't worth keeping a nucleus of players together for 6-7 years if you aren't getting your players to expand what they do. You only run the same thing out there for 6 years and hope you get a different result.
makes you wonder...if Larry wouldn't have pushed our players to expand their games and just catered to their strentghs...would we have been NBA Champs? How much of our success was due to our development under Larry's "right way" versus general team chemistry and evolution? I would argue that Larry's approach is what made us unique. Most of our starting five was considered one-dimensional prior to Larry's arrival. We were virtually impossible to stop when we got good ball movement because of our starting fives committment to well-roundedness. Its an interesting debate as Carlisle's approach appeared to be similar to what we might be able to expect from Flip. ..and Carlisle was reasonably successful with our squad.
...indeed. That's what I fear this year. Look at Indy. The reason they keep losing to us is because Cola never improves anyone there. They are the same guys year after year after year. You never see JO pull a new trick out of the bag. You never see Tinsley get any better as a PG. Nothing new will come out of S. Jackson. Artest will keep shooting that lean in jumper to draw fouls from guys standing straight up. They just run the same thing out there every year and hope it's good enough. Or "believe" it's good enough, if you ask their fans...
Now that I think about it...
I think Carlisle did add another dimension to some of our players games during his tenure here as Pistons head coach.
Wasn't he credited for making Stackhouse a more controlled, well-rounded player. When Carlisle first started with the Pistons one of the first items on his agenda was to make Stackhouse a more complete player. He succeeded and Stack was an all-star that year if memory serves correctly.
He also helped Rip to work on that step back jumper to get his shot off easier against aggressive defenders
That's about all I can remember, but in general I would agree that once Carlisle plugs you into a role..that becomes your role as Wallace can attest.
^ also, like it or not, injuries played a big role in why Indy never beat us.
Pushing a player out of his comfort zone so he can grow has its merits. But you have to have something solid there in the first place. Chauncey had all the skills necessary to be pushed in the direction LB pushed him. Tayshaun needed a push to be more aggressive offensively and Rip needed a green light to work on his 3 point shot. They all had the talent to begin with...they just needed a push.
The problem with pushing Ben to become an offensive weapon is that there wasn't the natural talent to begin with. Dennis Rodman, for years, spoke about becoming more of an offensive force...this year he would break out offensively...he had a few moments but of course never blossomed offensively.
But it could be argued that Rodman had more offensive talent than Ben based on free throw percentages. As bad as Rodman's free throw shooting was he kicks Ben's butt with a 58% ft average compared to Ben's 42%.
Ben needs to revert back to his comfort zone offensively...garbage buckets and easy shots. He needs the ball in his hands less.
Saunders & Garnett
Now lets assume that you are correct.
I just offer this up as a point of discussion.
KG was a rookie in FS first year as coach of the Timbervolves.
Following your line of thinking than KG has been limited in his growth. Interesting.
Buddahfan, I put the curse of 3,000 CHEAP plastic lawn chairs on you!
That's not following my line of thinking. KG could have been allowed to pursue his comfort zone without having to go into the post (fact).
KG's comfort zone is a lot broader than most players. Can you say that Tayshaun and KG have the same upside? Or Rip and KG? or Ben and KG?
Imagine if Rufus Henry was still on this team. I think LB would have made him not only the fastest one legged baller, but a better bone thrower as well.
Good point Micro. I think a lot of people feel that Rufus was basically uncoachable due to his unrestrained personal life and various physical ailments. I think if Rufus could have stayed healthy enough to get a few minutes of practice in once in a while LB would have groomed him into a perfect 14th man for our current team.
Stretching Your Plastic Lawn Chairs
Now wait just a minute Mirco:
You are correct in that some players comfort zone and skill level is broader than others.
However, Daddy Rich never tried to turn Bad Boy Bill into a post up player, though I did see Bad Boy Bill try and do it once in a while. And I got a good laugh each time. Also as far as I know Daddy Rich never sent Bad Boy Bill out to the alley way to chase chickens to improve his footwork like Rocky. Watching that would have been even funier.
I don't know if Brown would have tried to turn Bad Boy Bill into a post up guy or not, but somehow I think Brown would have lost more than that battle if he had pushed Bad Boy Bill too far.
Oh by the way thanks for cursing me with such a big lawn here in So. CA. I could buy a lot of Piston's playoff tickets with a lawn that held 3,000 plastic lawn chairs cheap or not.
And I will return the favor and curse you with a Chuck Nevitt bobble head doll.
Chuck Nevitt, great point. Some players have ZERO comfort zone. I believe that Wild Bill D. became disillusioned with Daddy Rich when Chuck languished on the bench during the second quarter of games.
Some people thing Darko was Brown's Waterloo, but I think that Daddy Rich truly made an error when he neglected and even hated Chuck Nevitt. Later Fennis Dembo was the whipping boy.
Here is a quote from an insider on that situation from back in the day.
These coach/fan schisms go way back. ;)
Was that quote from Lee357? Seems like your battle with him have been going for quite a while but I had no idea for how long:P . Now, can I get curse with 10000 Carlos Arroyo t-shirts? I'm going to Puerto Rico and they will be a hot item there
Flip interview--What he said but didn't say
A very direct hit on how Ben was misused in the offense. Another direct hit on how the offense underperformed. I am excited. Good-bye to our predictable, grind it out offense. We will be the moving target which is the best thing to be. Miami and Indiana fans better worry.
Ok, so Flip wants to trap more... run more... and move off the ball more.
If these statements become true Flip will have to:
A) Invest in some extra oxygen tanks
B) Get the bench ready to contribute significant minutes
I think Flip partially addressed that by saying that he expects to limit the starter's minutes to around 30 (I thought I heard that, did my ears play tricks on me?). He said he likes a 9-10 man rotation and that would allow the Pistons to play with more energy. The guys we have on this team are fast and athletic. We need to use that athleticism to run away from teams with slower plodding types. The only guy I really see struggling to run on the Pistons is Dale Davis (boy is he slow). Our starters are all fast, quick and long. Our bench has guys that can run as well. Arroyo is a fast pg, Delfino can run, Evans is athletic, Dice can run and jump, Darko moves well for a 7 footer, the Pistons have all the guys they need for that kind of offensive attack. They have speedy guys with length to trap and rotate well.
These changes will make the Pistons very exciting to watch and more explosive. I think we WILL BE A BETTER TEAM and WIN MORE GAMES than last year and I firmly believe that this team WILL WIN THE TITLE THIS YEAR.
Brown getting Ben involved in the offense was a good thing. Believe it or not, there are more and more defenders who can't guard Ben. Use to be the other team would put their small forward on Ben. This small forward would actually play off Ben, and get back to him if Ben got the ball. Now a days, you put a small forward on Ben, and Ben will score. Even some of the lesser power forwards and centers can't guard Ben these days. This helps the team around him.
As for Carlisle pegging people into roles. Not exactly. Not on defense. On defense, he demanded you learn. Remember Corliss and Barry. They came here not playing defense. Neither got that good at it, but both improved, especially Corliss.
And Atkins too started his first season with Carlisle believing defense was not his job. Carlisle benched him at one point in the season. He benched Barry and Corliss at points in that season. You better play defense, or you don't play for Carlisle.
Ok, so we heard one interview from Flip. But no games have we seen him coach the Pistons yet. Just 11 days away from that first game, which will be televised.
I also want to say something about that left hander being forced to be a right hander. For me, it was being forced to choose one hand over the other when I was naturally ambidextous. I did everthing with either hand. I got tired writing with one hand, I threw the pencil to the other hand and just kept writing. Same with sports. Got tired throwing the ball, just swiched hands and threw with the other. My teacher in the 2nd grade demanded that I choose a hand. I went eeny-meeny-miney-mo and started being a right handed writer.
At home, my brother refused to let me throw left handed, pointing out we only had right handers mits, and wow, now I was a right handed thrower. So from age 9 to 11 I was basically right handed. During that time, I learned to write. Countless hours of practice, pure torture to me not being able to switch to the other hand when my right hand got tired.
And I played baseball for two or three summers on a constant basis, building up my throwing arm. At age 11, I started doing everything both hands again, but its real hard at that point to play catchup. As an adult, I kept both a right handers and left handers glove but other than practice, I always played as a righty since my left hand never did catch up. (But I never did lose my ability to bat left handed, just was not as good as right.) Anyway, in sum, I deeply resent my teachers, and my brother, for not allowing me to be what I was, an ambidextrous person. These days, the only thing I do competively left handed is play tennis both hands, using my forehand regardless of which side the court you hit the ball too. I do have a slice right hand backhand I use a lot too, but I depend on my left forehand quite a bit. I can also beat a lot of people in horseshoes and table tennis left handed, and of course shooting the basketball left handed around the basket came in handy a lot back when I played.
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