Flip leaps into the Penthouse

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by LA Sam, Oct 4, 2005.

  1. LA Sam

    LA Sam Second Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I think I'm in love. I've been crying, pleading, and begging for a coach to recognize the abilities of this team, and utilize them to their fullest.

    1. Sheed: Sheed is a horrible post player in the classical mode of play. He is almost useless as a back to the basket player that must make a move to score. However, he is one of the best players at going to the basket off of movement. LB seemed to hate to have plays to the basket off of movement, and wanted to force Sheed to play a back to the basket style that didn't work for him. They will be cleaning up the floor while opposing big men soil their pants trying to defend Sheed, Tay, Ben & Dice(not to mention the years that could be added to their careers).

    2. Darko: Darko can play a back to the basket game, but at his young age and weight, that's something he should use sparingly. The nightmare of Sheed & Darko roaming the perimeter, with the ability to take most players at their position, would be frightening(if Darko delivers). I don't think you'll ever confuse Darko with Dirk(let's hope not on defense), but if he even approached what Kukoc was capable of, we'll take it.

    3. Freeing up Arroyo for more pick & rolls, was something LB didn't seem to see the value in. When executed correctly, the PnR is one of the most effective plays in basketball.

    4. Bigger rotations: Duhhhhh!!! Hello? Flip will use a 9-10 man rotation during the early part of the regular season. I say we could go even higher early on, and trust me, he will. You need to have some caution there, but you've also got to know what players can give you in which situation. That requires experimentation, but you just don't want to lose games trying to figure it out. The longer rotations will benefit the rookies, and the cream will rise to the top.

    Flip's system is prone to regular season success, mostly because he NEVER really shortened his lineups during the playoffs that much, and his teams got high on offensive ball. Once they hit the playoffs, matching the extra intensity eventually wore them out. The saving grace here is that this team knows what the playoffs are all about, and let's face it... this is Detroit. We don't play that homey!

    Flip just went to my penthouse, and I'm ready to get this party started.
  2. Jackattaq

    Jackattaq First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    277
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Warren,Mi
    Music to my ears

    For all of LB's supposed "coaching genius" how could he miss the glaring deficiencies in his schemes? Did he really think dumping the ball into a 42% FT shooter in the post was a good idea, 7-8 times per game? Did he truly believe that Hunter could run the offense effectively? Did he think that Tay could play at the highest level despite playing 44 mpg? After his first season LB became more of an anchor than an asset. It was definately time to part ways.

    Flip, IMO, has said all the right things. He sounds as if he's been sitting back and making all the same observations that I have as a fan. He has been watching this team from afar or he and Dumars spoke about the team extensively before his interview about team needs and such. He just seems to have a good understanding of what the team needs. I know I read that he has had quite a few discussions with CB. I think he will take the input from the players and put it to use. No more "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY".

    Flip has definately risen to the Penthouse.
  3. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2005
    Messages:
    3,890
    Likes Received:
    997
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Howard Stubb's garage
    Sam, when I read your post I thought back to LB's first year. Everyone was ready to put him in the Penthouse too but after a couple of months he was being dogged in the forums and the Pistons were a mess. Probably 95% of the forum messages were negative, sky-is-falling bashing posts. Here is the MCcoskey report card around that time.

    Offense: D

    Too many bad shots, too many turnovers, too many poorly executed sets, too many dry spells, too many sub-20 point quarters, too many sub-40 percent shooting games and way too many sub-80 final scores. There is too much offensive talent for this team to be so offensively challenged.


    Defense: B

    The only real problem defensively is rebounding. The Pistons are still giving up a lethal amount of second-chance baskets. The aggression levels are starting to come back up. Ben Wallace has seemingly taken his game up a notch and others have followed.


    Bench: C

    It is still the rare night when the Pistons get bench production from more than one guy. The Pistons haven't had more than one bench player score in double figures in the same game since they beat Lakers on Nov. 18. That was also the last time the Pistons scored 100 points.


    Strategy: C

    The Larry Brown-Mehmet Okur feud needs to end. Okur has to stop being so petulant and start acting like a professional. You can be mad at your boss, but you still have to do your job. Brown needs to do a better job of understanding and using Okur's skills. The Pistons cannot get to the next level with a pouting and non-productive center.

    Overall: C


    *******


    Despite coaching the "wrong way" LB got the job done.


    So, I'm not ready to put a guy who hasn't coached a single game for us into the Penthouse. For one thing, people will be calling for his head as soon as he loses two games in a row or Darko gets a DNP. Also, he has some pretty big coaching shoes to fill.

    Prove it Flip.
  4. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,964
    Likes Received:
    35
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tampa, Florida
    ditto! ditto! ditto!
  5. iamme

    iamme First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2005
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    0
    Flip's got one thing going for him that let to LB and Carlisle's demise: he's a people guy. Flip knows that you don't cross Mr. D. He's shown that he was a well-liked guy in Minny and at the very least, i'm sure he'll gain the confidence of the rest of front office.

    of course, that's all contingent on Flip putting together a successful post-season run.
  6. bricalz

    bricalz First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    359
    Likes Received:
    9
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cebu City, Philippines
    Flip

    I'm thinking he will prove it. :nod:
  7. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,365
    Likes Received:
    2,204
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    It is a little early to proclaim Flip as the next great one (or a failure). I just read on Hoopshype this morning that the 2 best coaches in the NBA are in the East, and Flip wasn't one of them. Carlisle and Brown.

    It's tough to argue with that considering their credentials.

    This run with the Pistons will determine how great a coach Flip is. Let's be realistic about the fact that his last job was one he was fired from.

    Remember, if Flip succeeds he won't get all of the credit, and if he comes up short he's sure to be the goat. That's the nature of taking over a perennial contender.

    I'm quite sure we will see plenty of ups and downs this year. The first 3 game losing streak or 2 game playoff deficit will bring out the worst panic attacks...

    I will reserve judgement until the season has ended. I'm in the show me group with BBills.
  8. iamme

    iamme First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2005
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    0
    unfortunately, Flip's in a catch-22 as well.

    if the Pistons make it to the Finals, the credit will probably go to the players and maybe even some discredit towards LB. i'm guessing that Flip won't get much of the credit from the media.

    if the Pistons don't make it to the Finals, Flip will probably get the much of the blame. it sucks for him, but i'm sure he was fully aware of the pressure.

    edit: lol, i realize i just reiterated what micro said above.
  9. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    12,078
    Likes Received:
    549
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Land of the Spuds.
    True enough, Flip was fired. But so was Larry... and Flip at least left on "good terms" with his bosses. So I think getting fired doesn't necessarily mean you aren't a really good coach. In the words of Curly, maybe he was just "a victim of soycumstances...nyuk nyuk." Larry left on bad terms although (big although) he did help lead his team to the NBA finals.

    You're absolutely right. Flip's in a tough situation. The East this year will probably be much more competitive than the ones Larry faced (assuming Indiana avoids brawling this year and assuming Miami puts it all together). Flip actually could do a very good job but lose to an excellent team in the second round. People will be calling for his head if that happens.

    And like you said, if the Pistons win, people will say "anybody could have coached that team to the finals". Of course, some of the people saying this will be the same writers who predicted a third place finish in the East for the Pistons.

    On the other hand, Flip is very fortunate to walk into a situation with a talented bunch of (relatively speaking) easy to coach players who know what it takes to win and had the benefit of learning from two great (not perfect) coaches. I'm pretty sure almost any coach in the league would be willing to take his chances on that.
  10. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,964
    Likes Received:
    35
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tampa, Florida
    If Flip finishes with the best record in the league, the Piston's defense holds serve and the offense improves dramatically, I think he will definitely get some accolades. But that's alot of IFs.
  11. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2005
    Messages:
    3,329
    Likes Received:
    501
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    I fear there will be an awful lot of disappointed fans with Pistons colored glasses on if LB's 2 Finals appearances & 1 Title are overshadowed by his "deficiencies".

    Amazing. I've never seen a fan base more eager to take a step back in one of the most important depts. and be happy about it and even expecting to be better.

    Flip might be as good a coach as The Cola and he won't strike fear in the heart of Van Jeremy. If Flip does send our big men to the perimeter, we are toast. Prepare to go back to the days when Ben lead the league in rebounding, but the team was dead last. This could be a very frustrating year.
  12. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    detroit
    i fear some fans will have to take thier autographed lb catheters out when flip does as good or even better than lb did when he was here. lb lost the title last year and a large part of it was because of his deficiencies. he didn't want to be here he got his wish.

    amazing i've never seen a piston fan. more attached to the coach than the players. lb got outcoached by van jeremy on more than 1 occasion. van jeremy countered lb's defense of wade and lb never countered back. we had wade bottled up in game 1 and van jeremy made a move and lb had no answer. pop definitely had no fear in his heart of lb. he definitely outcoached lb in the finals.

    sheed played on the outside anyway. if you didn't notice he was jacking up 3's left and right. flip offense will somewhat be ran through sheed which will force him closer to the basket and force him to be more offensively aggressive. we had no post up big man in the 2 finals runs so it's not like we are losing much. flip never said he wouldn't require big men to rebound. he just plays players where they are comfortable and most effective. he doesn't force square pegs into round holes.
  13. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,361
    Likes Received:
    1
    Flip's Playoff record

    I don't believe that a Carlisle coached team has ever gotten to the finals and that was in a weak Eastern conference. When Flip was in the West he was stuck having to go head to head in the playoffs with on more than one ocassion the eventual NBA finals winner for that year.

    I think a lot of people don't factor in the high level of competition that the Timbervolves had to play each year in the playoffs to advance. It was only in 2003-04, the year the Pistons won that the Timbervolves had the talent to make it it to the finals. Of course when Cassell went down in the Laker series that was it. If he had been healthy in that series then the Timbervolves would have faced the Pistons in the finals and given then a lot tougher time than the Lakers did.
  14. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,365
    Likes Received:
    2,204
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    B-fan,

    In 4 playoff years Carlisle's squad has lost to the EC Champ 3 times.

    As far as the meltdown year, I don't think any coach has done as good a job as Carlisle did last year with basically a mash unit after the brawl. How many teams can go without 4 starters to suspension/injury throughout the year and still qualify as the 5th seed?

    I'm no COLA fan, but Rick should have won COY last year. He is that good.
  15. Griffin

    Griffin First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    0
    Some people know that LB - although imperfect, as you gladly point out - was a damn good coach.

    Assuming we'll be better without him comes off like you're in denial about how much he meant to this team's success. I guess I just don't understand how tearing apart LB accomplishes anything? You honestly think he was holding the Pistons back from winning the championship last year? You think without him we would've sailed through San Antonio?

    Criticizing LB for being imperfect is weak.

    Yes. Add me to this group as well. Flip has a lot to prove. A LOT.
  16. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,212
    Likes Received:
    195
    Flip on Pistons

    I was truly astounded to hear him speak so comfortably and with knowledge about the team. I know he still has to prove it and words need to be backed up by deeds. But I agree with many of the early posts, Flip is saying what we all have been saying at one time or another this last year. This team does have room for improvement; we do have a whole other level. It is refreshing to see him size up his team's strengths and plan his attack from there. I am captivated by his statement that he will use Sheed like Garnet. Can't wait to see it. I noticed that Billips hinted too that the offense was a problem. Well, Flip will certainly get his chance to solve it.
  17. LA Sam

    LA Sam Second Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Playing on the Perimeter

    In general, I don't believe in having your big men play on the perimeter, but we have 2 special cases, Sheed and Darko.

    1. Sheed is a not a classic post up player.
    2. Darko can be, but isn't physically suited to do it at this stage of his development.

    That's why I love the thought a coach that recognizes this, and implements a plan to take advantage of players abilities. He is going to do this in two ways.

    1. With Sheed & Darko, the Pistons will play "outside in". This involves players facing the basket more than back to the basket. While this technique has flaws, the flaws are mitigated by the second component.
    2. Scoring off of player movement, not ball movement. When the big men are as fast and agile as Sheed and Darko, you have to utilize those attributes, especially if they are well conditioned. The good news is that they won't have to play as many minutes as under LB.

    So if you don't believe in Flip, no problem. Believe in the players we have, and believe that, and hope that this change doesn't take as long as it took for them to adapt to LB.

    There is no doubt that we lost a great coach, there's only one Larry Brown. But Joe has this annoying habit (annoying to competitors) of finding guys that haven't done squat somewhere else, but are ready to win it all for the red, white & blue. I'm hoping that he's right again.
  18. LanierFan

    LanierFan Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    The "LB is God" types are sitting pretty. They can use the two consecutive Finals against Flip anyway they like:

    * If he takes the Pistons back to the Finals, he's just surfing along on the team Larry built (never mind, Joe, Rick or Sheed).

    * If he doesn't -- for any of a million reasons that could happen after a relatively untroubled run -- they congratulate themselves on his failure.

    But the argument really isn't whether Flip falls short of LB's 2004 level. It's whether LB himself would be anywhere near that level for us again. Given how he burned bridges, let the coaching staff deteriorate and lost focus at several points last season, I doubt it. He was never going to be his best on the Detroit sideline again and there was a meltdown risk. That made the Pistons' choice no choice at all ... just a necessity.
  19. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,365
    Likes Received:
    2,204
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    Are you saying that LB isn't God? ;)

    Honestly, I will give Flip props if he can deliver. I'll give him even more props if he can be the first Pistons coach to make it to 3 years since Daddy Rich.

    Don't forget about the "LB is Satan" folks. That's an important demographic as well...:eyebrows:
  20. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    detroit
    using the argument that lb is great makes flip not great is weak. yes. lb had a part in our success he also had a big part in our failure. i don't understand how not being in full support of flip accomplishes anything. flip is the pistons coach right now. that's who i support.

    i'm not in denial saying we will be better. we lost no players and we gained lots of players since lb doesn't know how to use a bench. we will be better offensively and the core players were playing defense before lb got here and they will still play intense defense after he's gone.

    yes. i believe lb held us back from winning last year. he practically quit on the team in the miami series but our will to win put us in the finals. you forget he was arranging his next job while we were in the middle of a playoff run. his lack of adjustments made the finals series a gift to pop. he made no adjustments to get rip open off of bowen. he didn't take advantage of our mismatches. he went to small ball in game 7 instead of letting dice leave it all on the court. he refuses to use his bench so our core was dead tired by the time we got to the finals.

Share This Page