Flip Murray

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Dumars4Ever, Dec 9, 2006.

  1. Dumars4Ever

    Dumars4Ever Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2006
    Messages:
    2,175
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Washington DC area
    A real feast or famine guy. As we've seen so far this season, he's talented enough to hit some really tough shots, but he's also undisciplined, taking dumb shots and committing bad turnovers. He doesn't move his feet well on defense, but his hands are super-quick, so he can get steals or even blocks on guys who are going up to shoot, as he did several times at Dallas and at Orlando. As with so many average or ho-hum NBA players, it seems like he could really be good if he just played with more heart and more court awareness.

    Trying to piece things together from his NBA.com bio and a couple of other articles I've read, it appears that he ended up at a little Division II school (Shaw, in North Carolina) because he didn't have the grades to get into any major school--he was at community colleges for three years before ending up at Shaw. Then he dominated there: Division II national player of the year, led his team to the final four, etc. He must have been so much more talented than everyone else at that level that he could dominate every game without any sort of unusual effort. I also remember him going nuts and scoring over 20 ppg for about a dozen games when he was filling in for Ray Allen early on in the '04 season, which is probably what cemented his place in the league.

    It's a nice story that he went from nowhere to being a multi-year NBA player, but maybe this is an instance where he actually had it too easy, even though he was in the sticks for so long. He probably never had to work much on moving his feet on D or developing a good sense of court awareness on offense. His talent has carried him to this level, but maybe this is an example of a guy who really could have been something special, if only he could have gotten some good tough coaching at a major college program.
  2. webz

    webz All-Star Administrator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    3,346
    Likes Received:
    621
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    yes its a shame for him that he wasn't here 2 or 3 years ago. having LB coach him could really have helped his game.

    unfortunately flip saunders isn't going to teach him much. he will just have to learn from players like rip and CB. at least he might pick up a strong work ethic being in detroit. that is, if it didn't leave with LB as well.
  3. Dumars4Ever

    Dumars4Ever Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2006
    Messages:
    2,175
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Washington DC area
    LB might have helped him somewhat, though I don't think he would have been playing very much either. But, it's really tough to develop those basic elements of one's game at the NBA level, no matter which coach you're playing for. There's almost no time for any sort of teaching once the season starts, and you're not even practicing a lot of the time, certainly not when you're on one of those crazy 5 games in 7 nights in 7 different cities type of road trips. Of course you can always find some guys who improve a lot while they're in the NBA, but for the large majority of U.S. players in the league, college is really where that groundwork has to be laid.
  4. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    9,463
    Likes Received:
    418
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Los Lunas, NM
    After a few rough games at the start of the season Flip has gone from "FMS" Flip Murray Sucks to "FMM" Flip Mini Microwave.
    Don't mess with his minutes.
  5. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,587
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Sterling Heights, MI
  6. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    17,345
    Likes Received:
    2,703
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicaaago
    So he scored on Jameer Nelson with jumpshots. That doesn't make you a starter. Anybody can potentially hit 4 J's in a row against an undersized guard.

    It seems to me that the consensus here is that Flip Saunder loves this guy and has been doing him a big favor by playing small ball.

    If I were Murray, I'd stick with Saunders.
  7. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,153
    Likes Received:
    2,014
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    Let's not forget that he absolutely failed in Free Agency last offseason. It was a weak class of players, and his agent's phone wasn't ringing.

    I like this guy a little. I don't think he has a high motor, and I don't think he plays particularly hard, but when he gets going, he can be a weapon.
  8. webz

    webz All-Star Administrator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    3,346
    Likes Received:
    621
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    he's still living the past.

    note to flip murray:
    "i have been the number 1 option my entire life" is a theme most NBA players have had growing up. if you're good enough to be in the NBA, chances are you were a young stud and 'the man' on your high school team.

    but you're in the NBA now, not little league, theres a very good chance there are going to be a LOT of better players than you now. deal with it. accept your role, which all of your coaches have assessed to be similar. every coach you've had has seen that he has 5 guys he'd rather start.
    this isn't a one-off situation. but this is probably the best team you'll ever be on. make the most of it.


    the guy must be flat out blind ignorant if he still believes he an all-star calibre player after all this time. i mean, its not like he hasn't had opportunities to break out.
  9. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,212
    Likes Received:
    195
    Micro,

    I have a similar view of Murray. He is just learning defense. but hard to quit on a guy that can hit tough shots. He is not great at catch and shoot--now.

    By the way, I read your view of Darko in a different strand and feel much the same way about him at this point.
  10. armygirl

    armygirl Bench Warmer Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,712
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    Ft. Belvoir, Virginia
    So does this mean that Dumars will seek to trade him before the deadline??? f he walks and CB walks we will be down to one PG (Blalock).

    Makes Dumars job pretty difficult.
  11. TWOTIMESRALPHI

    TWOTIMESRALPHI Starter 3x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,975
    Likes Received:
    98
    Location:
    Vienna
    that Murray scrub wants to be a starter? He hasn't shown anything that qualifies him for a starter- nowhere in this league. Dude needs to shut up and work harder- there aren't many coaches around who'd give him such an huge amount of minutes like he's getting here.
  12. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,153
    Likes Received:
    2,014
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    His contract is such a low value, it's really not in anyone's interest to trade him.
  13. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    4,372
    Likes Received:
    794
    Location:
    Oakland, CA
    This is my problem with murray, if he's only going to be here for a year, you need to play someone you have locked up long term. you need to rely on some guys. not just send them out there to fill their minutes quota.

    Flip is a capable player but once he's gone we will still have some under developed guys and then what? Another mercenary to come in and be dissatisfied with his role.

    it wasn't about his abilities. I think he's does what he is asked ok.
  14. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,153
    Likes Received:
    2,014
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    Allow me to talk nerd to y'all for a minute.

    Flip is playing on a contract known as the Bi-Annual Exception. His second year is a player option. This means he must opt out of his contract (dissolving it) before he can enter the free agent pool. While under contract to Detroit, neither he nor his agent are allowed to negotiate with other teams. Of course there are workarounds to this, picture the agent and reps from a team writing emails in code or whispered conversations in a dark, smokey, underground strip club.

    Now the Bi-Annual as it goes is not a lot of money. It's less than half of the AVERAGE player salary. Can Flip do better?

    Well, that is where it gets tricky. Many teams are over the soft cap, which means they only have 2 exceptions to offer to new free agents. The Bi-Annual (Flip already is on a deal like this) and the Mid-Level Exception. The Mid-Level is based off the average player salary which is approx. $5 million to start. And those teams will be looking to fill needs with their Mid-Level.

    Does Flip Murray fill a free agent need for anyone? That's the big question.

    Now, let's say Flip stays and Chauncey stays. Rip is under contract as well. He's not going to see a lot of minutes in his second year as a Piston unless someone gets injured. Of course, Blalock will be here, as well as Lindsey, possibly Acker (remote in my opinion) and of course Delfino. Feel free to include one more incoming rookie unless the Pistons max out on size in the draft.

    Where does that leave Flip? After his second year, he will be an unrestricted free agent, and able to sign anywhere, but under the same constraints and similar market conditions if he was to opt out after one year.

    So who can pay him the money he craves? And it is money and security because Flip turned down the Pistons Mid-level this year when they thought Ben was coming back. I don't think the money bothered him, it was the playing time. But two years older, he's not likely to become a starter on a good team with a big paycheck. Those teams will be trying out rookies, because the most overstocked positions are combo guard and swingman.

    The Pistons. The Pistons can pay Flip if they want him, and it won't affect their ability to spend in free agency because he will qualify for the Early Bird Exception. That's a two year deal starting at around $5 million.

    Flip lost his big payday blowing off the Pistons offer last offseason. I don't see him making that up anytime soon. And in a league drawing talent from overseas and a deeper college draft, I don't see him stepping into a starting role anywhere.

    This is a situation where Dumars got lucky when Flip blew off the Pistons earlier offer, and now Joe sits in the driver's seat (in my opinion) with regards to the future of Flip Murray.

    Some food for thought. Feel free to pick my post apart. If I am wrong on something, it's good to know.
  15. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,406
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Michigan's Thumb
    I agree with Slippy. Murray hasn't shown me enough to think he is going to be a Piston all-star. Half of the "tough shots" that he makes are because he has to. I mean he forces himself and the team into desperation shots because of his dribbling. I can't even count how many times he slow dribbles down to the baseline into a double team to have to make his 180 degree turn-around jumper. He makes the game harder on himself and his teammates with his decisions.

    That is one of the main reasons I am for Delfino getting more of his minutes. Even at his age it seems Delfino has a high basketball IQ and doesn't put himself and the team in those situations. Delfino is going to be a good NBA player soon. I sure would like to see him blossom here with the Pistons. I think given enough time with Blaylock; they could become a very potent back-up tandem to CB and Rip. Sure would like to see them get an opportunity.
  16. 16 Mile

    16 Mile Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    1,301
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    NY, NY
    :stirthepot:
    Let's see, in a normal world, with a normal player, everything you've said would be right. But Flip aint normal. 6th mans, on top teams, working on a contract year, don't complain about not getting starter minutes. Flip should listen to Delfino, Delfino just wanted to play, he didn't care about the minutes, he just wanted some minutes. I bet Flip would rather start for the Knicks than play off the bench for Detroit, Dallas, San Antonio, ect.

    Something is off with Murray, he has too much talent to be on his 4th team in 5 years. Cleveland made zero effort to resign him. Only Joe was even willing to offer him the bi-level. Look at Flip's ability, and the fact Joe was the only person willing to offer him a contract tells me that the guy has some serious issues. And interviews like this don't change my mind.

    Joe offered the contract cause it was a cheap gamble. Flip would play hard because it was a contract year, Joe gets a free look at resigning Flip next year. But, considering Delfino's play this year, and rumors about Blaylock, no way Joe even offers Flip a contract, even if Flip wanted to stay.
  17. Mad Hatter

    Mad Hatter First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Messages:
    516
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Detroit
    Well, we could always package Flip and Delfino for Bonzi Wells, since he also signed for much less money. That would give us a legit 3 guard rotation and make room for Blalock as well. :stirthepot:
  18. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    3,396
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Amish Hood
    The only thing that will change execs mind about Flip from last years free agency snuff would be if he blew up in the playoffs (while GM's watch from their recliners)... I'm concerned that this season will become Jr.'s showcase while forgetting about his teammates
  19. max

    max All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    7,360
    Likes Received:
    357
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    my bunker in the Carribbean
    I kind of got the impression from the start that it was going to be a one year deal. He signed for so cheap that he has nothing to lose by opting out.

    Just buying us time utill one of these projects pans out. Plus as Ros pointed out one of those late 1st rounders is bound to be a guard.
  20. linwood

    linwood All-Star

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2005
    Messages:
    4,368
    Likes Received:
    1,353
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Seattle, WA

Share This Page