Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Delfino Delivers, Jun 3, 2008.
Co-signed. It's flawed thinking.
When did I say either of those things?
Yes, the bench is important. Yes, they could have been better integrated in the playoffs.
I still don't think that's enough to win if your starters choke. It sounds like Joe doesn't think so either.
I think we need improvement in both categories: better production from the starters (and at this point, I think that means some changes in the roster) AND better integration of the bench. You guys keep on talking like the bench is literally ALL that matters.
Bench is important, to a degree. Joe was pissed that Amir wasn't integrated into the rotation. Looks like he's high on the youngster and whoever the coach of the team will be will have to play the guy.
I agree about Amir.
And I still don't think playing him would have gotten us to the Finals this year, not with multiple starters disappearing at key times in the ECF.
But the starters didn't choke. They just didn't all jell at the same time. You can say the same for Boston. Look how bad Ray Allen was for most of the playoffs. Each starter had great games and poor games. That is usually the case, especially when they are up against the best teams in the NBA.
I don't think our starters were so bad that it was futile to explore other sources of production.
We abandoned our player with the best +/- on the team. No other team in the playoffs did that.
Probably not, but now we'll never know.
I would describe what happened in the first half of Game 3 and the 4th quarter of Game 6 as "choking," and that ended up being the difference in the series. Not gelling together in Game 1 and Game 5 shouldn't have mattered, considering that they did gel in Game 2 and got the big road win.
I haven't listened to this particular interview yet however Joe has zero credibility in my opinion.
Let his actions speaker louder than his words. Since 2004, he has been an overrated GM living off his reputation of signing Larry Brown, drafting #2 and trading for Sheed.
So much crap about a team that will play hard, that he isn't afraid to make moves, about accountability etc. It's time for Dumars to walk the walk, we've all heard his talk, and for 3 years, it's been a lot of BS.
If you think they choked, then why did they choke? Were they nervous? If so, then why didn't they choke at other times?
I think that's a little harsh. Drafting Stuckey and integrating him into the rotation was a successful move to address a key weakness (backup PG), and Joe deserves credit for getting that done with a mid-first round pick. Of course, some of his other moves have been flops (Nazr, Jarvis).
Joe has already changed the coach and is talking about making changes to the core of the roster as well. Only time will tell if it works out, but with the potential of changing the core AND hiring a new coach who'll really use the roster in the way Joe wants, this off-season is lining up as the one in which he'll be able to put his own personal stamp on the team to the greatest extent in several years.
I'm not sure where you're coming from here. I think losing big playoff games at home by playing poorly when you have a chance to take control of a series amounts to choking. Struggling on the road is a bit different, certainly in Game 1 when CB was coming off his injury.
I think we're all in agreement that the "secret weapon" of Amir could have made the team at least somewhat better. I just don't agree that any particular secret weapon off the bench would have propelled this team to the Finals.
The only thing that irritates me about Joe is that he has fallen into the pattern of hiring coaches who won't do what he wants them to do. Then, he won't override them. Then, he comments about how they should have done things better.
Just take control of the situation, Joe. Hire a puppet or confront a big name coach. How can you let your reputation suffer when an employee of yours won't let you execute your vision?
I wish Joe would join the coaching ranks.
We weren't that far away. We weren't dominated. If you would have seen any Boston forum after game 4, you would have seen some scared Boston fans.
I just don't think our starters collectively choked. For a choke to happen, nerves have to be involved. These guys are so battle tested, that I think it was almost the opposite of a choke. It was more of a lax approach. They needed some energy off the bench to spur them on. They needed to feel like they were fighting for playing time.
That's fair enough; the lax approach was indeed a big part of the problem. That's what I had in mind when I said they choked, though you're right to point out that the particular term usually means something else. Where I disagree is in concluding that bringing Amir off the bench was the only thing they needed to get past that complacency.
But I also don't totally agree that complacency was the entire problem. Thinking that you're good enough if you just show up in the right frame of mind is its own form of complacency. Sometimes the conclusion should probably be that they aren't quite good enough.
There are coaches out there who could have coached this exact group of players to a Championship this year... and last year... and the year before... and the year before that too.
To disagree with me is a farce!
There is no one in the organization that I can name off the top of my head, who is not here at the whim of Joe Dumars. It is absolute Horse-puckey to claim that he needs to put his stamp on the team.
Larry Brown was his stamp. Flip was his stamp.
Darko was his stamp. Stuckey was his stamp.
The team that cowered in front of Lebron last year, that was his stamp.
The team that basically rolled over in Game 3+6, that was his stamp.
Sorry, but where I come from, the manager takes the blame for the under performance or outright failures of his subordinates.
Long time Pistons fans are all too familiar with the coach falling on the sword refrain in Detroit. Flip is gone, fine. Who is his replacement?
This reeks of a move meant to take the heat off of Joe, not a legitimate plan to improve the club.
And while I love my pal Matt Dery and WDFN, that station is to the Palace, what Pravda was to the Politburo.
Losing is Flip's fault.
Flip is Joe's fault.
Joe is Bill's fault.
Our only option is some sort of hostile takeover or buyout.
Which coach would have guaranteed a Championship? LB, Pops, Phil? Winning a Championship is not a cake walk and LB or any of the names I mentioned would have probably taken them to the finals. You making it sound like Pistons's talent and tenacity is so superior to every other team in the league is a disservice to the competition. The Pistons are very good, probably too good in their own mind to put in the hard work and discipline it takes to win. Joe D himself pointed out this lax attitude. Don't blame all the poor performances on the coach, the players have to man up.
Man, you're really pissed off today. What exactly IS a legitimate plan to improve the club, in your estimation?
Separate names with a comma.