Fronting the Post

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by ahb, Jun 2, 2006.

  1. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    How is it that a professional basketball team has no clue how to correctly space the floor so that a fronting defense on a low-post player won't be effective?

    How is it that a professional basketball team can remain in that predicament for an entire playoff series, despite being in desperate need of high-percentage offense?

    :confused: I'm completely at a loss for words at this team's inability to make a basic post-entry pass.
     
  2. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    I didn't see all the games but I heard all of them. And one thing I kept hearing is BBen fumbled the pass.
     
  3. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    With his itty bitty hands, he excelled at fumbling the pass to him inside, missing the occassional alley-oop, and losing the rock on one of his pattented backdowns. At least he closed out the season hitting 75% of his free throws:laugh:. I guess now that we have been eliminated, if we will see him still sitting in the locker room on cell phone telling his wife how much he loves her:eyebrows:
     
  4. Dlev59

    Dlev59 Bench Warmer Moderator

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    Beacuse they are a jumpshooting team!!!!!!!
     
  5. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    I wasn't talking about Ben. I was talking about Rasheed (and, to a lesser extent, McDyess) who was fronted every time he posted up by Haslem and Walker.

    The weak side almost always had at least two players below the free throw line extended, which allowed the Miami defenders (in most of the games the 3 - standing shooter in the weak corner and 5 - standing around at the opposite mid-post - but never touching the ball for a hi-lo entry) to clutter up the lane against the lob pass, even in the unlikely event that Chauncey found the correct passing angle. So, basically, Rasheed was made completely useless even when he posted up on the low block against defenders that can't handle him one-on-one; the ball movement was stagnated; and eventually one of the guards would throw up a well-guarded, low-percentage shot late in the 24-second clock.

    Yes, they are - by design - a jumpshooting team. But I'm having trouble with the concept that a very basic defense can be so successful for 6 games, without the coaching staff adjusting to it.

    The only times Sheed was successful in the post during the Miami series were off of broken plays/switches and during the third quarter of Game 4? when he was posted on the weak side and got up some quick turnaround jumpers off ball reversal before the defense could react. That the offensive system itself allowed defenders to cheat so successfully on the team's only back-to-the-basket option when the team was having trouble making a jumpshot is a major problem to me, if not to Flip.
     
  6. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

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    Because when we go to post ups it seems like the players involved never do it with a purpose. Nothing is a ever quick and precise. They slowly work the ball over to the corner. Then the post up player half-heartedly fights for post up position (and loses that fight). Then they stand there for 10 seconds deciding when they should pass.

    It's all too predictable and easily defended.
     
  7. Dlev59

    Dlev59 Bench Warmer Moderator

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    Again they are a jumpshooting team. If your offense is based primarly on the perimter your post up game will be soft and ineffective. You don`t practice it, resulting in blown oppurtunities, turnovers and well, losses when it counts!
     
  8. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    When was the last time any of our bigs showed us the washing machine?
     
  9. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Being a former PF I understand exactly what ahb is talking about... and agree whole heartedly....
    Here's what I saw as flaws in the techniques...
    First of all the Pistons seemed surprised by the fronting strategy that the Heat provided (the Cavs or Bucks didn't front much)...
    What they did was tighten up the cushion available... in otherwords there was not a lot of spacing between the fronter and the inside help... the Heat fully understood who our only inside threats were... Ben could have helped more by stepping out weakside for a short skip pass... easier said than done when you're passing over 7'1" Shaq and Mr. wingspan Zo.
    Add the fact that Sheed was having a difficult time holding position with the bad ankle... he was being bounced out further than his sweet spots... he was looking at mid range shots instead of low post position.

    What they could have done is use the PF's off screens and movement before the D had a chance to set up... not Sheeds strength as he likes to get it and survey the help before making his move... Dice is similar in that he doesn't like to catch and shoot before making a couple moves.

    If you watched closely Shaq was always putting a body and arms on Ben... he couldn't just shake loose for the lob pass (the refs never caught this blatant holding)... there was no easy lob available to keep them honest on cheating on Sheed & Dice.

    A little better interior movement, screens and recognition by our bigs would have helped move them out of the fronting strategy.

    It was hard to get an inside/out game going... they were sagging and helping aprx 40% of the time.
    Also our perimiter cutters were almost non existent to keep their bigs home.... why? because we couldn't hit the outside shots for better inside spacing... it became an interior game in a phone booth (look at game 4 where we almost exclusively tried to get inside)...too many ops for the defense to intercept passes.
     
  10. Winless Wonders

    Winless Wonders Starter Forum Donor

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    We couldn't defeat fronting the post because Flip is like Mooch. He doesn't know anything but his system. What happened to making adjustments? Like going to a front court line up of McDyess, Wallace and Wallace late in games. Put Big Ben at the 3 spot with Tay at the point and Rip at the 2. Then after like 4 or 5 minutes sit Rip down and put Billups at the 2 so that he could focus more on just scoring. Tay could have backed down Jayson Williams all day long and there is no way he would have been able to get a shot off with Tay put a hand in his face. Shaq would be too tired to take advantage of McDyess or Sheed in the 4th qtr.
     
  11. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    WW, be innovative? I'm waiting. Maybe Martz can be with the Lions.
     
  12. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    Not that this is really an issue anymore since Rasheed almost never seriously attempts to post up, but Chicago had success with Luol Deng fronting him tonight - Deng being somewhat more athletic but without the strong base of Andres Nocioni, who Rasheed abused last year. Deng is a ridiculously huge mismatch who the Pistons were able to exploit most of the time when Rasheed got the ball on the block in the first quarter, but went away from later in the game, confused by the fronting defense.

    Flip Saunders blames Flip Murray:
    while Rasheed disagrees, stating that the problem is with the offensive sets:
    Guess who's lying more?

    Note that this is without Ben Wallace clogging up the lane. Nazr Mohammed hit a few 10-15 foot jumpshots tonight, but he's never been consistently able to hit that shot and the Bulls don't care much if he can - still, while he neither has the jumpshot of David Robinson or the passing skills of Sabonis, he and the other two players on the weak side do have advantages to exploit if the ball is moved quickly enough after the fronting defense is employed, or (I know this is a radical concept) the players are moved before it.

    (Note that Delfino, except for a turnover coming from a Ben gamble, never had problems feeding Maxiell after crisply coming off a weakside baseline pick and getting an immediate swing pass from Blalock. Maybe Flip is right and the only players on the team who can solve basic, decades-old defenses are the second and third stringers, but as far as I can see, he's the one with the whiteboard and the very successful adjustment, if it had been made sometime in the first quarter unstead of in garbage time, might have done something to control the pace of the game and keep it more competitive.)
     
  13. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    Have to agree with Sheed. An NBA player should be able to give an entry pass. You can't only depend on Chauncey. What if he fouls out in a game 7. You're not going to even look to post up anymore?
     
  14. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    A post entry passes is one of the rarest skills in the NBA. There are really only maybe 20% of the players who can do it effectively.

    Don't ask me why. It's just one of those skills that always seems to go underdeveloped.

    You could depend on Delfino. This is why I am loathe to give CB the big bucks. We've avoided having the team screwed by one player's ineffectiveness or injury (cap wise) until now.

    By the way, Billups is no Leonardo Da Vinci either. When people front, it is a more difficult post entry pass. I doubt he would have had the patience to feed anyone over their man for a length of time.
     
  15. max

    max All-Star

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    There were a couple of times last night when a guy was wide open and Blaylock did not even see him. One play Maxiel was 5' from the basket wide open with someone behind him in sigle coverage and Blaylock hot potatoed the ball to the guy next to him. Couple more passes later the posetion ended with someone missing a long jump shot.

    I have come to the realization that Blaylock in not ready yet. Good try for the 60th pick but its time to send him back to the D-league and find a real backup point. Maybe he needs to play oversees for a couple of years to develope some offense. We don't have the time to mess around with him now.

    Interesting that Delfno was brought up. Would it have been anymore crazy to start him at point? Murry had never played it professionally until this season.
     
  16. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    PISTONS: A Slunch, Three Fouls, a Pop, a Slap, One Flip, Two Flip
    The Pistons honestly believe that Flip is a point guard. It's depressing since pretty much no one else in the league (fan or management) seems to think so. No one even wanted this guy for the bi-Annual Exception for crissakes. That's basically saying, we'll try Europe or the CBA before looking at Flip Murray. Maybe invite Canada's dwarf basketball team to camp and see what they have.

    I'm pretty fired up this morning. Haven't had a chance to break down Blalock's game, and don't know if I will. I know he isn't good, but it is damn sad that he is outplaying a veteran guard. This experience will either end or kickstart his career.
     
  17. Terry T

    Terry T First Round Draft Pick

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    I don't think it would be crazy but who is going to hold the gun to Flip Saunder's head in order to make it happen? For some reason Flip seems to hate to see Delfino initiate the offense.

    When Delfino is trying to feed the post and the opposition has taken away the passing lanes, he takes a hard dribble to create a passing lane. What a radical concept. Why has no one else(on the Pistons) ever thought of this?
     
  18. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    TT, I think it is pretty simple. Flip doesn't like any PG who doesn't run his system by the book. The only one capable of doing this due to past familiarity and experience (in Minnesota) is Chauncey.

    Flip lives and dies by his system and offensive philosophy. Where he is running into trouble is that guys like Delfino/Maxiell/Davis can go out, just ball and have some success. It totally undermines his position of offensive coordinator if the QBs keep changing plays at the line of scrimmage and have success.

    For the love of all that is holy, we don't even have a P&R offense. The Pick and Pop is not the Pick and Roll. We don't swing the ball from one side to the other, we don't run cuts during isos to create passing opportunities, ARGH!

    This offense is so stagnant, so predictable, so brainless it is crazy. We play outside in, we shoot 3s like it is competition, and no one moves around with or without the ball.

    It must be noon somewhere. Time for a drink.
     
  19. Terry T

    Terry T First Round Draft Pick

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    Who would value control over success?

    (Pause while I put on my Sherlock Holmes deerstalker)

    Flip's neck twitches look eerily like mild tourettes syndrome. Tourettes is often accompanied by OCD. No one values control more than someone with OCD.

    In any case Flip is too rigid. He really seems to have problems making adjustments to incoming information. What other coach would not want (and play) the in the paint wrecking crew of Davis and Maxiell? Bob Hill in Seattle must be scratching his head and wondering. Last years playoffs; Flip kept calling the plays for Rip and Sheed even though they were on one ankle and couldn't get it done. Now the Flip Murray point guard fiasco.

    I think it is time for Joe to step in and have another talk with Flip. Flip may be incapable of resetting the agenda as situations change and may need Joe to do it for him. The Pistons offense has to run on spacing and movement and to make it work you need a fairly high basketball IQ. Delfino brings this and Murray does not. Someone please hit Flip Saunders over the head with this fact until it sinks in.
     
  20. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    That is why I thought Porter, and Cowens would be valuable. Looking at our starting lineup we shouldn't be a jumpshooting team. Why does everyone say this team is a jumpshooting team?

    Chauncey great outside shooter. One of the best. He also manhandles 99% of point gaurds in the paint. He should be driving and posting his man 9 times out of 10.

    Rip is one of the best shooters in the league. He should look to drive more though. He is also very fast and he should look to penetrate more. Penetrate & Dish, or Penetrate & Score that's what Rip should do more.

    Tayshaun is the most obvious. Flip keeps him outside like he's Ray Allen. He can shoot, but he's better at taking the ball inside. Tay should get more cuts and post ups in the offense.

    Sheed's shooting touch is used in the worst way. He's is still a big man. He could be one of the most dominant even at this age. Dirk gets ripped on because he doesn't play defense. Tim Duncan doesn't have an outside touch. Ben's great at defense, but he can't score. Sheed has the whole package. In the offense he should post up his man every single time. If the defender tries cheating than Sheed gets in a pick and pop play.

    Nazr is the only starter I'm not pissed at. He's doing the dirty work, rolling inside, and hitting the occasional jumper. Good job.

    J Max. Give him the ball inside that is it.

    Flip Murray can't shoot. He can drive. Start creating on penetration or get traded.

    Delfino can make plays from others and get to the hoop. Like Tay he shouldn't be roaming outside. Delfino is doing the hustle plays, if he was used correctly in the offense he'd be a 6th man candidate.

    Dice can shoot, but like Sheed he's a big man. He may not be as dominant inside as he once was, but he can still dunk on someone. He can do so much better.

    Dale was doing nice. He supposedly has the flu. Once he's over his sickness he should get right back on the court because he helps this team a lot.

    Looking at all these problems it's time for Joe to get involved. Either with moves, or he should knock some sense into these guys.
     

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