Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Slippy, Jul 17, 2007.
I love that place. Haven't been there in ages.
I heard that the ONLY thing that Minny will accept for KG is the Colonel's secret recipe.
I never knew losing blalock would hurt so much. I have to change my grade to an F.
I actually think the Bulls were gunning for a Ship in 07/08 and they thought signing Ben would put them over the top. So, they were willing to pay him more than market value to make sure they secured the deal.
At the start of the season last year, I thought it would come down to Det vs. Chi for the ECF. For whatever reason, they didn't gel. If they incorporate Tyrus Thomas fully, then I think they could be better this year, but still probably not on par with the top tier teams. I'm not sure if I think we'll be better than them this time around.
I'm not expecting much from Noah, but if he pans out at all, that will be another energy player for Skiles to go to.
PJ Brown was a major weak link.
What are the top tier teams?
So far the Bulls lost one guy (Brown) and added 2 (Noah,Smith). Everyone is assuming that this Noah kid is going to be a bust. The Bulls will be better because most of their core will get better. A good gage for the Bulls will be how they fare on their long early West coast trip.
I would give Dumars a B so far. He was able to retain Bullups and Amir which was great but he had no competition for them. I liked how he was able to scare off other teams from bidding on Amir by convincing them that he would match all offers.
Stucky was predictable since thats who most predicted he would pick as long as no one else slipped down. Not sure about his #27 pick but we will see. I would have liked some deal to move up in the draft but Stucky was the I believe 2nd SG selected so if thats what he was looking for.
He still has to do something about Mohammed and a Center with some height would be nice. More easily said than done though.
Curry was a great pickup for the coaching staff. I still would have preffered that Dumars had lost Flip. Convinced Davison that he had to go if thats what held things up. Anyway we now have 3 decent replacements ( Porter, Curry, Cowens ) if Flip needs to go next season.
I still think there is going to be something big happening before its over.
We still don't have a proven scorer off the bench.
Joe not canning Flip so far is Joe just putting off the inevitable.
See, I don't really think they believed that. I think they thought it would be one major step closer, but I don't think they felt they were ready to contend. I think they were still hoping to land someone like Gasol to finish the puzzle. But, that never happened. So why they wasted what money they had on Smith before the season even started is beyond me.
Dumars' offer doesn't have to be chump change, but if you're already prepared to offer 12...then you have more to negotiate with. No one and I mean no one comes to the table with their max offer to START with. Besides, a little flexibility didn't have to result in the full Max salary as everyone wants to portray.
Remember we canned Stackhouse before he asked for too much and from his play and attitude, he earned it as well.
We got rid of Mike James when he clearly held up his end of the bargain.
Same could be said for Vinnie Johnson after the 2nd title.
Arguments could be made for Okur, but I don't miss him at all.
It's not like Wallace was worth 5 and asking for 15 (*cough* Darko)
Well, not unless you're Otis Smith...
We don't know what exactly transpired when Joe was negotiating with Ben and his agent. So, lets not say what he was willing or not willing to do. Do we know for sure if Joe even got the last look?
Stackhouse for Hamilton was an excellent move and I saw it as more of wanting an upgrade than wanting to avoid a big contract because in the end Hamilton got about what Stack would have gotten.
We were capped out and could not afford James. Right? Wasn't that the case? At least I thought so.
Same for Okur. There were no mathing offers for 2nd round picks back then.
Vinnie Johnson? Thats a different regime.
So what if Dumars had matched and resigned Ben for 60 mil over 4 years? We would have begun the summer already in lux tax before Dumars placed a single call to Billups or Amir's agents. He would have had to move some salary. Probably would have been forced to trade Sheed to free up his 12.5 mil ( or whatever ) in order to resign Billups. But that still would not have left enough to resign Amir without avoiding some lux tax.
I think its a forgone conclusion that Davison is not going to pay any more than a mil or 2 in tax so thats the situation. 12mil/yr for Ben was a more than fair offer and had Ben accepted it he would still be here. Dumars seems to operate a little differently from other GM's. I do believe that he sometimes opens with the most he is willing to pay. He is a straight shooter who plays no games. He seems to have done that with Billups as well. Only difference is there was no other team stepping in to muck things up.
Joe has done part of the job but all this seems very late. He didn't do (or his hands were tied) what he had to do the last 2-3 years to keep us at the top. Now it is a struggle and a prayer.
We will rely on rookies next year to get us over the top. I like the upside but they are rookies.
We will not go far in my opinion unless we settle the center position between now and February. We need a big body (he doesn't have to be very skilled). Prisbilla, Foster in Indiana--someone who can fill the lane.
I agree with Low that we have not recovered from the loss of Ben.
The rookies are a move to cover the loss of Mike James which was three years ago. That is a long time to fill a hole.
Still, if the rookies jell and we get a big body to fill the lane...
Re-Signing Billups: A
As usual, Joe showed style and grace in re-signing Chauncey to a very reasonable contract.
Re-Signing Johnson: A
IMO, our need was a pure PG such as Crittenton. Nevertheless, Stuckey has proven to be a dynamic, agressive, exciting scorer, who can create his own shot, and finishes well on drives.
Those who know his college game claim he is a smart, heady competitor, and a strong perimeter defender. Still, perhaps our need was a big man or a SF.
I hope his agent wasn't the only reason Joe drafted Mejia. He brings energy, rebounding and defense. May not yet be ready, but at 24, when will he be ready?
Dumping Delfino: C-
While I was never a big Delfino fan, I must admit that dumping Delfino for nothing, and then drafting 3 SGs is a bit of a head scratcher.
Regardless of how you feel about Stackhouse, he had earned the right to negotiate for more money by the way he played here. James wanted a longer term deal than Joe D wanted to give because again we're back to the "big savings" plan. So, we ended up with Arroyo/Blalock & Kelvin Cato out of that plan. Great! Again, not signing Okur (even though I didn't like him personally) was again, the "big savings" plan. Nothing in return. Finally, unless Vinnie Johnson played for an owner other than Bill Davidson in Detroit...same M.O., no lux tax then, but same idea. Think Zeke wants too much power too quickly after helping build your franchise into a winner? Bounce him! Same for Chuck Daly. It's just the way Davidson has done business here year after year after year.
How long have I been saying that it didn't have to be the max contract for people to keep trying to make that point with me? 13 MIl / 52 x 4 would have been a Mil in lux tax anyway - even the damn 12 would have put him right at the cap. Besides, they didn't even try to compromise...they came to the table with 11.4 in a BS cat and mouse game like they were going to trick Ben into talking them up to 12 Mil as if they were giving some room. They only wanted to give 12 so they should have started with 12 be straight up about what they wanted and been willing to compromise/negotiate. That didn't happen. The fact is that CHI ONLY made the 15 Mil offer, so there was no room for negotiation because they came right to the table with the Max deal.
So where are the big savings? Besides Joe (or Davidson if you will) have pissed away the "big savings" with the crap players they sign so what would you rather have? Crap players and no lux tax or better players and a better chance at a title with a little bit of lux tax...it's not like Bill D is losing his dinner here. The guys a freakin billionaire but it's like you guys want me to feel bad for him. Screw him AND the luxury tax. The guy owns an NBA franchise and it ain't because he needed it to pay his bills.
Yes, it's Davidson's team. Yes, it's Davidson's money. Yes, he can run the franchise any way he sees fit.
...and Yes, I have the right to not be happy about it and say so on...
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Low - only 4 teams paid lux tax last year so Davison is not that different.
- No way Stack was worth a max deal.
- Okur could not be extended because the rules were not in place yet for going over the cap. We had no Bird rights on him or James that year. It was physically impossible to re-sign them and Sheed/Dyess at the same time.
- Weather or not Ben was worth 15mil/yr is a matter of opinion. One thing though that I do agree with is paying players according to their worth and not because they were underpaid in previous years. Too much competition to run a franchise based on what players did for you in the past. They are all multi-millionairs either way.
The NBA wide avoidance of the luxury tax seems like collusion to me. It seems like Davidson and other owners have a wink-wink agreement to eachother to not exceed the cap. It's like a cartel. As long as nobody violates the agreement, they all benefit.
The benefit to avoiding the luxury tax is not exactly hidden. It avoids the dollar for dollar penalty on contracts and it allows the teams to get FREE money from the teams that do pay it because each team under the limit gets a % of that. In addition teams that pay the tax aren't the ones winning titles either, so there is no real proven benefit to paying it instead of managing contracts. It doesn't take collusion to see why 90% of teams avoid it.
First off, Rip didn't get a max deal so why would you suggest that I said Stack should get a max deal? More money doesn't automatically equal max deal. It's not like DET offers it's players 95% of the max so the only alternative is the max.
Whatever, I don't even care. I didn't like Okur anyway, I don't care if we paid for him or not. All I know is there is a pattern of Davidson succeeding short term but being middle of the pack long term because he isn't willing to keep successful pieces in place long term. Davidson couldn't get rid of guys like Daly and Zeke fast enough. However, they've got every excuse in the book to keep a failure like Saunders around (the exception being Cola). I don't like it. That's my opinion.
I think that a smart GM could easily make going into the luxury tax territory work out financially. Especially in a market like Chicago.
I realize there is an obvious penalty, but the precedent to not exceed it at all for almost all teams in the league seems suspicious.
It is pointless to complain about owners acting in cahootz when there is a player's union though. Their job is to deal with stuff like that.
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