Grading Joe's Offseason So Far

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Slippy, Jul 17, 2007.

  1. DeetroitDynasty-e

    DeetroitDynasty-e First Round Draft Pick

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    Joe Dumar's picks (Detroit) and my scoring of them:
    2001
    Rodney White (9) - Bench then traded => -1.5
    Mehmet Okur (38) - Today a Starter => 3.5
    2002
    Tayshaun Prince (23) - Starter (2)
    2003
    Darko Milicic (2) - Today a projected Starter => -1
    Carlos Delfino (25) - Not signed for a year, Rotation (0.5)
    Andreas Glyniadakis (58) - Never in NBA (0)
    2004
    Rickey Paulding (54) - Never in NBA (0)
    2005
    Jason Maxiell (26) - Bench (0.5)
    Amir Johnson (56) - Bench (2.0)
    Alex Acker (60) - Deep Bench (0)
    Overall Score
    6.0
  2. 16 Mile

    16 Mile Bench Warmer

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    The problem with the rankings is doesn't account for coaches or depth. New Jersey has had tons of injuries, so everyone they draft gets to play. Detroit, on the other hand, has had 5, then 4 starters who play extended minutes, and coaches that do not like playing rookies.

    Joe's problem has never been his picks (not counting RW), but his management of the players once they have been picked. I have a feeling that he's not going to repeat that mistake with Amir and Stuckey.
  3. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    Your overall score is more reflective of the reality.

    :hoops:
  4. Hobbs

    Hobbs First Round Draft Pick

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    Andy G. has been in the league. He had a cup of coffee with Seattle last year.
  5. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    I am not sure if since Joe D. has been Pres of BO for the Pistons if we have ever drafted anyone with a decent offense or better and a solid defensive game that we did not give minutes to.

    We love our Pistons defense and as Pistons fans have taken a lot of pride in our hard working players and their defense. We have always been at or near the top in defense over the last 5 years.

    Then we want our young guys to play, forgetting that most young guys can't play defense worth squat. Not that they don't have the ability, but because they don't learn it in high school and/or college.

    Tay broke into our starting lineup relatively quickly and stayed there not because he had a few 20 point games, but because he learned how to play defense in college and brought it with him to the Pistons.

    Personally I have no problems with the young guys not getting minutes just to give them minutes if they can't cut it on the defensive end.

    That even holds for AJ. If the can't step up his defense so that his fouls committed go way down and he doesn't get faked into the pop corn machine with salt and butter all over him more than he should then I will have no problem with him not getting regular rotation minutes.

    That is one of the reasons I loved Tark's Runnin Rebels and I love this incarnation of the Bruins with Ben Howand as coach, because you know that these teams will bring the defense for 40 minutes or close to it game in and game out.

    Ben Howland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In my experience and opinion, and the opinion of many others, winning basketball begins with defense and ends with defense. A top notch defense does wonders for improving your offense and getting you wins.

    Of course having said that you still these guys who play hard and great defense to put the ball in the hoop, because that is the only way you gets points. Nothing like stating the obvious.

    :hoops:
  6. Hobbs

    Hobbs First Round Draft Pick

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    Tay did not break into the lineup quickly. He barely played in half the games his rookie year (42) and averaged 10 minutes per game. He only got a chance to play because we were on the verge of getting humiliated in the playoffs (he ended up playing almost as many minutes in the playoffs as he did the entire season up to that point).
  7. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Bhudda, it seems to me you are trying to set up excuses in advance for our young guys not getting minutes this season. Here are some reasons why that type of excuse will not cut it. One, Mohammed. Mohammed refused to ever get over and help out on cutters to the basket. This left gaping holes in our interior defense. Yet, he played for us anyway until we picked up Webber.

    Hunter. Just too old. He could still play some decent defense on occasion, but he was too old, slow, and lacked height sometimes on top of that and basically presented little opposition to perimeter shots.

    Flip. Flip Murray opted out of playing defense at all for much of the season, until he was firmly benched and found new religion. Still, his ability to stay in front of opposing guards was minimal even when he tried his darndest.

    Dyess. No lateral movement. Nuff said.

    These guys were all in the rotation, despite some pretty serious flaws with their D. Now, a rookie, or near rookie, such as Amir, JMAX, Stuckey, Afflalo, Mejia, Samb will indeed make some mistakes as they learn. But they won't learn much without playing, and all these guys can make up for a lot of their mistakes with youth and the quicker reflexes and quicker feet that go with that. And these guys, all 6, have a lot of length, good height (except for JMAX who has tremendous wingspan for his height.)

    So the coach can go two ways. He can sit out the youth for any mistake they make, in a completely failing attempt to teach them anything, or he can let them play thru their mistakes, and continue to the game.

    I know this is not a Darko thread, yet he is a classic example of a player Detroit pulled from the rotation due to inexperience. In that NY game, the opposing center who was not all that talented, basically went right thru Darko unchallenged. Call it whatever you want. Inexperience. Maybe he froze a bit. Whatever. But this same guy was routinely blocking shots, altering shots, stopping shots from happening. This same guy was literally flying out to the perimeter to bother shots. Very active feet. Overall, a pretty darn good defensive player. Pulling him for a mistake, especially for the rest of the season, was a horrid reaction.

    Why do I bring Darko up? Because Amir is another big with tremendous quickness, who will undoubtedly be altering a ton of shots. We should love this, not sit him if he gets fouls at too high a rate or misses a defensive rotation here and there.

    I firmly believe that Flip Saunders is plotting exactly how he can justify taking young guys out of the rotation. By no means is he trying to figure out how to incorporate the youth Dumars is providing. Rather, he is in full sabotage mode. He needs no ammunition from arguments like yours.
  8. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    You misread my post.

    He would never have stayed in the lineup as a starter for all 82 games if he couldn't play defense. He did not stay in the lineup because of his offense.

    In 2002-03 Tay's first year when he played in 42 games the Pistons with Curry starting gave up the fewest points in the league per game 87.7 and were rated 4th in the league in defense. That is why Tay did not get to start or play that many minutes in his first year.

    2002-03 NBA Season Summary - Basketball-Reference.com

    In the playoffs he got his opportunity to play and scored plenty as you said. But the next year in 20003-04 he started, not because of his offense but because of his defense. If his defense had not been good enough he never would have won the starting job in 2003-04

    Tay's first year as a starter, his second year in the league 2003-04 we improved from 4th in defense to 2nd.

    2003-04 NBA Season Summary - Basketball-Reference.com

    If you play on a Joe Dumars team it is about defense first last and almost always. Because he builds his teams based on the same philosophy that was successful for him and the Pistons in the late 80s.

    Strong defense, strong guard play, low turnovers, good rebounding and jump shooting big men.

    Have a nice day.
    :hoops:
  9. Hobbs

    Hobbs First Round Draft Pick

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    "Tay broke into our starting lineup relatively quickly and stayed there not because he had a few 20 point games, but because he learned how to play defense in college and brought it with him to the Pistons."

    Which part did I misread? Maybe you meant you misstated your point.

    And, you are aware that the given reason he didn't play was that his defense wasn't as good as The Vocalizer (which of course was false as the playoffs proved out).

    We've avoided playing young guys because our coaches don't particularly like playing them (for whatever reason they conjure in their heads) and have only done so when forced into it. Dumars has now attempted to force the coach into it again.
  10. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    First of all, before I pile it on, hey Bhudda, I do not mean to be picking on you. Just a lot of time to kill before the season starts so I will add the following to the discussion.

    Tay was one absolutely good player in his rookie year. Tay had played 4 years at Kentucky, so was not the typical rookie trying to jump to the bigs after just one or two years in college. As I break down film for a hobby, I knew just how good Tay was. I said, with a lot of laughter and derision for it from many, that Tay could match TMAC point for point in a head to head matchup. Which Tay pretty much proceeded to do, twice, in the playoffs, when you count the time when both were on the floor at the same time. Tays defense was that good, and so was his offense.

    The only thing holding Tay back from scoring more under Carlisle was that Carlisle had never written Tay into any of the plays. Which makes what he did in that Orlando series just that more amazing.

    Now, to make this post more complete, a bit of history. Carlisle did breifly put Tay in as the starter that year. We played some of the very best offenses in the league during that stretch, and wouldn't you know it, the average number of points we gave up went up during that stretch. Go figure, you play the best offenses, and the points given up goes up. Gee, how did that happen. Well, Carlisle basically blamed it on Tay and sat him back down, completely out of the rotation. Oh, and if memory serves we we won more than we lost while Tay started. But Carlisle said that the way they were winning was not "Pistons" basketball.

    This whole episode with Tay starting was a bad joke. Carlisle never meant to keep Tay as the starter. He was shocked at how much success Tay was having, despite being written out of the play book. He pulled him, made up his story, and wow, there are some people who actually bought the story. Coach must know best and all that. Coach did not know best. Or coach had an agenda that did not have winning as first priority.

    A bit more history. Curry was our starting small forward. The opposing coaches wrote their offensive plays against us to take advantage of how slow Curry was. Specifically, how bad his reaction time was. As a guy who diagrams all the plays in frame by frame for a hobby, I could see exactly what was going on. Curry was a truly horrid defender, and yet supposedly Tay was not good enough to play "Pistons" basketball. A very bad joke indeed, and its why I absolutely rejoiced when Carlisle got canned.
  11. round

    round All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion

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    the 4 games prince started were late nov early dec? and we went 3-1 on a road trip we averaged like 10 points more then our average and gave up like 6 points more then our average..... so yea we gave up more points on the road to offensive minded teams, but our spread was more also. all these numbers are off the top of my head from a thread several years old, lol

    but yea prince did get returned to the bench and was an animal once he was realeased.... just think if we could get him some rest during the season so he could be full of energy like that in the playoffs...
  12. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    I am not making excuses. Remember I am not a Flip basher nor have I basically ever criticized Joe D. Nazr was taken out of the lineup after it became clear that he played like you posted, which is lousy defense, among other things evidence his extremely high foul count.

    Hunter hung around as long as he did because he could still play some good defense in spurts, even though his offense had long since gone the way of the Cola, except for an occasional three point shot.

    The Pistons drafted for a third guard like Hot Rod because Flip can not play defense. That is also why they got rid of Smush, because other than an exciting steal or two, like Murray, Smush's defense is no where to be found. That is why Jackson eventually gave up on him, besides the fact that Smush's offense disappeared. The only reason Delfino's minutes went up some was because his defense improved to the point where he was not always getting burned when he played tight D.

    Dyess was our most effective rebounder per minute played last year and in fact are only really consistently decent rebounder for most of the second half of the year. He was resigned primarily because he can still rebound and even though he is slower than he used to be he still rebounds well enough, especially for a bench guy. His offense is still reasonable, but if he couldn't rebound he would never have been resigned for next year.

    Your young quick guys will not get minutes unless they can cut it defensively, unless Flip has no other choice, which hopefully won't be the case.

    :hoops:
  13. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    I am sorry I disagree. The reason to me is very clear why we haven't played young guys except for Tay and that is because they can't play acceptable defense. Not because of some poor coaching or arbitrary reason that Flip or Brown conjures up in their heads.

    :hoops:
  14. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    Say what?

    Curry could still play some good defense in Tay's rookie year. We won 60 games that year if I recall.

    Tay was given a chance to play in the playoff's because Cola trusted his defense enough otherwise he never would have gotten those minutes but they would have gone to someone else who Cola felt played better defense. Curry stuck around not because he was a sycophant, but because he could still play pretty good defense.

    Tay kept the starting job in 2003-04 because his defense was more than acceptable and his offense better than Curry's.

    Have a nice day
    :hoops:
  15. round

    round All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion

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    actually i would say that prince got the chance in the playoffs because there was no other option we were all but done and only after the the "i'm happy to be in the 2nd round of the playoffs" comment was made did prince get a chance to try to play defense. prince is one of a few rookies that didn't get the time they should have in my view, i understand most of our rookies sitting because the weren't ready to play piston quality defense.

    and in saying that... atleast at the end of the day cola was willing to try somthing to save the season, something that flip never did in the cleveland series.
  16. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    It seem strange to me that some posters on this forum have short memories about all of Tay's defensive exploits.

    His offense has always been spotting and a lot of people have complained not aggressive enough, which I would agree with.

    But his defense has been more than solid since 2003-04.

    Here is a piece written about him during the 2003-04 Finals.

    USATODAY.com - Defense worthy of a Prince
  17. J-Train

    J-Train Team Captain Forum Donor

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    Wow, Lee. I had forgotten how completely crazy you are. It's refreshing to be reminded. It gives my world some stability.

    Thanks!:)
  18. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    You are correct, but that is not my point at all.

    My point was not about the 2002-03 playoffs. However, if Joe D. had not thought that Tay's defense would have been adequate they would have found another backup long before the playoffs!!!!

    It was and is about why he won and kept the starting job in 2003-04

    :hoops:
  19. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    We won 50 games that year, not 60. The same 50 we had won the year before. This was despite adding Tay, Rip, and Billups to the team. (We did have the significant loss of our backup center, Zelly (who may have ended up our starting center that year))

    Tay had fantastic defense, in his rookie year on. His offense, far from being just better than Curry's, was very good-if he decided to be aggressive on offense.

    Finally, no, Curry could play virtually no defense in his last year with us. He was a hole in our defense, both statistically and any other way you want to measure it. Opposing coaches exploited Curry continually. They basically ran all the plays thru areas where Curry was supposedly watching. Curry could basically not move anymore. Slow footed, with very bad reflexes: if you watched the game in slow mo-he was stationary while everyone else was still moving around considerably. Some fans did not notice this too much, and believed the hype-that came from Curry as much as anywhere else-that he was still a good defender. But, I guarantee you, every coach in the league knew exactly how bad Curry was, and like I said, wrote all their plays against us to exploit Curry whenever he was on the floor.
  20. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    Fair enough.

    Maybe he had the lingering aroma of good defense that last year.

    In any case it appears that we both agree about Tay playing excellent defense almost from the gitgo.

    :hoops:

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