Hard 5 - Soft 8

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Slippy, May 25, 2006.

  1. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    4,390
    Likes Received:
    817
    Location:
    Oakland, CA
    The much ballyhoo-ed "best starting 5 in the league;" the well oiled machine that's logged the most games as a unit. Yeah the Pistons rolled over the competition in the regular season but there is a cloud to that silver lining.

    Sure you can say 5 will beat 1 or even 2 but on the flip side, can 5 outlast 8? Any given team is 1 part talent and 1 part utilization. I kind of think Flip was infatuated with the way the starting 5 was executing his offense. Who wouldn't be.
    Pick your favourite pine rider. Delfino, Mo, Delk, Dyess, Davis, Darko, Arroyo. NOBODY got a chance to make a difference on this team.

    Well, we are the ultimate 1 trick pony. If our 5 starts ain't getting it done, Flip will keep going to them. I don't get the feeling that we're bringing in a full team to the playoffs. Its more like 5 guys and the insurance policy.
    Right now, I'm kinda thinking, it would have been worth a few games to develop a team that is 8 deep rotation wise....its got the talent. HCA? screw HCA. The pistons squander that every time.
    The truly annoying thing is that this has been the tone of the whole season on this board. Bench needs more burn. Play Darko, Play Davis. Starters logging too many minutes as a whole.

    Well, i guess now all we can really do is watch our 5 +1 (dyess and hunter = .5 apiece) go up against deeper and deeper teams. From here on out we play team designed to win championships not just get into the playoffs.
  2. lemonpen

    lemonpen First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    591
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Southfield, MI
    If the Suns do in the Mavs development could have carried a nine game price tag and been enough to retain HCA.
  3. lemonpen

    lemonpen First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    591
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Southfield, MI
    I don't think Mr. D appreciates that kind of talk. I'll bet the Piston beancounters have enjoyed the heck out of the extra home games.
  4. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1,220
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Apparently the bench agrees with you. And not just the soft, whining, complaining, good-for-nothing, selfish, trouble-stirring, squint-eyed, untrustworthy South Americans.

    But one of the knocks on Flip in Minnesota is that he never established a rotation there, either, and his lack of trust in anyone other than the starting 5 and, to a lesser degree, McDyess and Evans, is turning out to be an issue when most of the starting 5 has gone John Starks on us. It wouldn't have to be a play-by-numbers scheme or a platoon system, but regularly using 9 or 10 players in specific, consistent situations during the regular season probably would have made the Pistons more prepared, versatile, and dangerous going into the postseason and probably wouldn't have cost the team that many wins, either.

    I find it impossible to believe that Dale Davis, in one year, transformed from a very serviceable starting center for a playoff team into someone whose career rusted shut on the bench to such a degree that his coach trusts him less to play power forward in crucial playoff games than a journeyman shooting guard - or a hobbled starting big who's firing blanks.
  5. DaviaG-Rap

    DaviaG-Rap First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    Bangor, WA
    It is frustrating seeing players like Devin Harris, Boris Diaw, Howard, Diop ect contributing in these playoffs and we have guys who are just as talented getting traded away or stashed away as opposed to helping. Yeah we have a very cohesive and experienced starting 5, but they aren't perfect. When they aren't getting it done Flip shouldn't be afraid to give someone else a shot. Darko, Maxiell, and Delfino could have been a huge lift this year, but again we have a coach playing favorites and coaching scared.

    Flip has shown in these playoffs that he can't make adjustments. He is afraid to do what needs to be done. Hell, why wouldn't you give Dyess more minutes when Sheed is napping on the court? Or play Dale Davis or Cato when Ben can't make a free throw? Why not play Delfino when Tay and Evans are struggling?

    Flip is sticking with the same lineup no matter what and it is going to cost us.
  6. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,254
    Likes Received:
    2,116
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    90% of playoff teams shorten up the rotation. No back-to-backs, long TV timeouts. Playing for all the marbles.

    Diaw and Howard are full time starters. Diaw for most of the year. Howard all season long.

    A coach has to believe that his best players can pull it out. Those three young guys haven't been on a playoff team with modest expectations. Unfortunately they landed in a high profile, great expectations situation.

    It's the classic Catch 22. I can't get a job without experience, I can't get experience without a job.

    It's funny the way folks memories work. Dyess has been totally ineffective and foul plagued at times. Not to mention he has little chemistry with CB, and doesn't play outside the arc.

    I LOVE McDyess. But I'm not blind to the fact that he is not the cureall for scoring droughts or rough nights from Sheed/Ben. He's a lot like Vinnie Johnson. When he's on, you go to him. When he isn't, you ride your starters.

    Cato is a non-factor. Davis, I cannot explain. I find it difficult to believe that after so little PT and none of that recent that he can suddenly come in and be effective. Yeah, he should have been played earlier in the year. But until the season is over, there is not time to look back and lament.

    You can't play Delfino when Evans struggles because he plays less than 5 minutes of meaningful time. There is no time to make the sub. Tayshaun is our most consistent matchup advantage. He's a steady defender and has the best post game thus far in the playoffs.

    That's why he was so great in 2003. No one saw him coming, and he kept posting Aaron McKie and lesser Orlando players. They couldn't handle his wingspan and soft touch. I haven't seen any matchup difficulty Delfino presents to an opponent. He may be good, but he's not going to blow-by someone off the dribble. He's not going to back someone down in the post. And he hasn't shown he can shoot or finish with a lot of consistency. Simply put, if this team sucked more, he would be a better player.

    I'm not sold on this. Consistency is key. If these guys played the way they did to close out the season, we would be rocking teams into an early grave. The dropoff from the starters to the bench is huge. Subbing in modest players for struggling stars is not necessarily going to yield tremendous results.

    All year the bench underperformed even when given minutes. The few times Flip put them in with a lead, they tended to blow it.

    At some point, the players have to produce to justify more PT. How would you as coach explain to your starters night after night that the bench needs to play and put the game in doubt? That the 30+ minutes they gave might be wasted for a greater cause? It's not an easy sell.
  7. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1,220
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    San Francisco
    John Starks.

    And I don't buy this:
    "When given minutes"? It's funny the way folks memories work.
    or this. Lindsey Hunter has been better than Billups for nearly a month. Tayshaun Prince ain't that great. Dale Davis is probably better than Ben Wallace half the time. In any case, that's exactly the point. The dropoff from the starters to the bench would not be huge if Flip had actually played them. Except for Rasheed Wallace and Rip Hamilton, each of the Pistons' starters tends to be somewhat to ridiculously overrated, and the bench is not as talentless as Flip's substitutions would lead you to believe. The catch-22 only exists to a man who's coaching scared.
    or this, particularly as inconsistent as the starting 5 has been in the playoffs. As the saying goes, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Most of success in basketball is exploiting advantages, and while the results of trying something different may not be "tremendous", neither will they necessarily be worse than sitting on the sidelines twiddling his thumbs and hoping that problems will solve themselves and advantages will spontaneously develop.

    Tayshaun Prince has no matchup advantages in this series, and is at a disadvantage against Antoine Walker, James Posey, and Dwyane Wade (and apparently Gary Payton as well). He's been ineffective defensively all year long, and cannot effectively guard any offensive player on the Miami Heat except maybe Derek Anderson. The starter-bench double standard I can accept as common, if misguided, practice. Overgeneralizing the effectiveness of a player won't help overcoming it.
  8. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1,220
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    San Francisco
    I don't know how I would go about that as a basketball coach. I do know that countless coaches in history, some of them with the egos of better players than the ones you're talking about to massage, have managed to do just that.

    How does Phil Jackson do it? How do Gregg Popovich or Mike D'Antoni do it? How could Mike Brown bench All-Star Ilgauskas in favor of second-rounder Varejao? I noticed some bench players in Pat Riley's lineup the other day - and he's not averse to yanking Shaquille O'Neal in favor of Mourning when the fat man isn't performing. How does Avery Johnson explain to reliable veterans Adrian Griffin and Jerry Stackhouse that Devin Harris and Josh Powell should get minutes, or to prized free agent signing Erick Dampier that unproven bust DeSagana Diop should start? Even that pathetic hack Mike Dunleavy managed to take chances, and in the playoffs no less. Why is Flip Saunders unique in shriveling under the pressure of a challenge?
  9. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,254
    Likes Received:
    2,116
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    Wow, come hard hunh?
  10. DaviaG-Rap

    DaviaG-Rap First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    Bangor, WA
    Microwave how can you write so much without saying anything? I don't give a crap about shortening rotations- we shouldn't be content when our starting 5 is playing mediocre basketball. It's not lack of talent, it's lack of effort.

    Guys like Delfino, Delk, Davis could be starting for a lot of teams!!!

    Dyess didn't match up well with Cleveland, but he could have a big impact in this series if Flip wants to play him. If Sheed doesn't step up play someone else.

    Tay doesn't need to play 40mpg to be effective.

    Not an easy sell to play the bench? Tell that to Dallas, Phoenix, San Antonio, Cleveland and Miami.
  11. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,254
    Likes Received:
    2,116
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    Can you draw a parallel with any other coach taking over a team of this recent history and caliber?

    I don't think so....

    Phil never sat MJ or Scottie. Remember when Pippen had the Game 7 (1990) migraine and had ice packed on his head during timeouts? He played 41 or 42 minutes. AND SUCKED HORRIBLY.

    Jordan had some rough games against the Bad Boys. Did PJ sit him down? For Craig Hodges?

    I remember Manu struggling this year. Did Pop go away from him? What about Duncan struggling in the Finals last year, getting 14 and 16 points in Games 4 and 5? He still played almost 40 minutes in those games.

    Ilgauskas? This is a player who needs ego massaging?

    D'Antoni plays a short rotation. Has for the last 2 seasons. They don't even have a guy playing the Mo Evans role, let alone tidbits of minutes for a Carlos Delfino.

    Riley rests Shaq when he is struggling. He doesn't pull him for non-performance. I've watched almost every Heat game this playoffs.

    Josh Powell has played 18 minutes in 3 playoff games. He's a major threat to Griffin and Stackhouse. NOT. Harris played 23 MPG all year. Is his PT a surprise?

    Dampier has been pulled for the last two years, and particularly this year when Diop (who was a bust in Cleveland the way Diaw was a bust in Atlanta) stole his starting job for 45 games.

    You make it sound like these coaches are making radical changes and experimenting with their benches. They are not. They're carrying on what they did during the season. None of this should be a surprise if you follow other teams. I do, and it's no news to me that Diop gets Dampier's minutes in a heartbeat when the "prized free agent" who was called out for being a wimp last playoffs by Nowitizki, stinks up the joint.
  12. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,254
    Likes Received:
    2,116
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    It's a gift. You should meet my biological father.

    Yes, it is lack of effort. Precisely why Darko was shipped out. Where are the energy guys on the bench? Is Delfino gunna fire everyone up by bricking a one handed jam? Is Davis gunna flex and point to the sky after he gets a rebound?

    Name 5 each.

    I agree, but Dyess is not a cureall. He has bad games and good just like everyone else.

    Tay needs to play 40 MPG because he has been our best player in the playoffs. It's what Wade does. It's what LeBron does. It's what Iverson would have been doing. It's what Dirk, Tony Parker, Tim Duncan, Steve Nash are doing.

    You'll have to convince me (better than AHB with his inability to revise an opinion when presented with overwhelming evidence) that Tay has not played at a high level. Then we can talk about reducing minutes. Instead, it sounds like you are grasping at straws, "They are in trouble, they can't score, oh my god I'm freaking out!", "Put in Delfino, where is Memo, we should have never traded Darko, play anyone because I can't see the game as it unfolds!"

    Joe said it best. Management cannot afford to overreact when things get tough. If they acted like us, and played musical chairs with the bench, we'd probably be eliminated now.

    Dallas, down 0-1.

    SanAntonio - eliminated.

    Cleveland - eliminated.

    Phoenix, has mostly played 7 guys. I don't think you are familiar with this team at all.

    Miami, I'll give you that ONE.

    You forgot New Jersey and Chicago (eliminated).

    Also Indiana is a great team for playing the bench. They did real good too. :rolleyes:
  13. DaviaG-Rap

    DaviaG-Rap First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    Bangor, WA
    Yes, it is lack of effort. Precisely why Darko was shipped out.

    Darko looked good in Orlando when he actually played. I'd take his quickness and shotblocking over Bens anyday.

    Where are the energy guys on the bench? Is Delfino gunna fire everyone up by bricking a one handed jam? Is Davis gunna flex and point to the sky after he gets a rebound?

    Who knows, but the starters aren't getting it done consistantly and the bench hasn't been consistantly played.

    Name 5 each.

    They could all start for just about any lottery team. And a lot of teams bring their starters off the bench like Dallas with Terry or Mike Miller in Memphis.

    Tay needs to play 40 MPG because he has been our best player in the playoffs. It's what Wade does. It's what LeBron does. It's what Iverson would have been doing. It's what Dirk, Tony Parker, Tim Duncan, Steve Nash are doing.

    Tay has been our most consistant player. You yourself claim that he is a 4th option. A 4th option can't be your teams best player unless you have an idiot coach and a crappy team. I think he could maximize his production if he played a little less thats all. We have the depth we should use it.

    Joe said it best. Management cannot afford to overreact when things get tough. If they acted like us, and played musical chairs with the bench, we'd probably be eliminated now.

    Dallas, down 0-1.

    SanAntonio - eliminated. Lost to Dallas who had a better bench.

    Cleveland - eliminated. Took us to 7 games!!!!

    Miami, I'll give you that ONE.

    You forgot New Jersey and Chicago (eliminated).

    Also Indiana is a great team for playing the bench. They did real good

    too. Maybe there teams weren't very good?:rolleyes:
  14. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    detroit
    darko wasn't shipped out because of lack of effort. darko requested the trade cause he was tired of the double talk from the pistons coaches. he was giving plenty of effort and results in the preseason when he was getting minutes and a chance.

    you are also wrong about delfino. he does get the crowd fired up with his dunks missed or made. he is the only piston that will go to the hole and thunder dunk on someone. he doesn't brick them all. you should recall that tip dunk off the free throw that even got shaq to drop his jaw. davis may not point to the sky but he will get the rebound and knock some people around.

    yes. mcdyess has bad games but those are usually his low minute games. mcdyess doesn't have a consistent 30 minute bad game. some games he comes in instantly hot other games he needs to warm up. i still think his minutes should be consistent and upped if the starters aren't getting it done. if they aren't getting it done put in mcdyess and see if he can get it going instead of having ben brick free throws and save his ego.

    yes. tay has been our best player throughout the playoffs but he still needs rest. he has shown that he can't play a full 82 game season and a bunch of 7 games series without running out of gas when we really need him. tay is majorly inneffective against driving players (lebron, jefferson, wade, ginobli) this is the reason evans, delfino should get shots and defending these guys. i'm not saying sit tay on the bench but give delfino 5 minutes just to see if he can make it happen.

    or rip would have healed his ankle. sheed wouldn't be injured as we speak. mcdyess, davis, delk have the hunger. when our starters were playing uninspired and going through the motions we could have used them.

    when guys were injured. he just plugged in a bench player. flip would just play our injured starter. most of those teams you named about being eliminated were eliminated by teams that used thier bench. so your argument is flawed. you still can't argue that those teams developed thier bench either to the point where they are starters or significant bench contributors. our bench never go the chance to crack the lineup. the lineup was set from before training camp that's why darko wanted out. doesn't matter if you can play if you aren't part of the starting 5 you ain't hitting the court and other teams know this.
  15. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1,220
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    San Francisco
    So Chauncey Billups, Tayshaun Prince, and Ben Wallace are comparable to Jordan and Pippen? You overestimate the 'caliber' of this team.
    Bet your ass he did.
    What is the difference between struggling and non-performance?!
    Were we talking about playoff games? The topic was consistency during the regular season creating options in the playoffs.
    Exactly!
    No, Diop was pretty much a bust in Cleveland the way Darko was a bust in Detroit. He gave minimal effort and was horrible on the court - despite being given all the minutes he could handle.
    And if Dale Davis had been given a similar chance during the regular season, he would be a rotation player.
    Davis would start for Toronto, Indiana, Chicago, New Jersey, New York, Boston, Atlanta, Charlotte, Sacramento, and maybe Orlando, Miami, Minnesota, and the Lakers. Delfino would start for Charlotte, Orlando, Utah, Oklahoma City, Denver, Philadelphia, Minnesota, and maybe Washington, Atlanta, Portland, Houston, and the Lakers. Delk probably would not be a starter for any team in the NBA due to his size.
    This is obviously an irreconcilable difference. You view Delfino as a poor man's Mo Evans, with "potential" to become somewhat better sometime in the future. I view Delfino as essentially Corey Maggette, right now, with "potential" to become better sometime in the future. Obviously the postseason is not the ideal time for a player to be given a chance to prove himself, which was the point, I believe, of the original post. The Pistons are now a "one-trick pony" without many options - but they didn't have to be.
    Now you're comparing Tayshaun Prince to All-Stars and MVPs. Tayshaun Prince is a role player, and your "overwhelming evidence" of opinion to the contrary doesn't make it so. Prince "has been our best player in the playoffs", by which you mean that he had some good offensive games against Cleveland and did a halfway decent job defending James with a little help from his friends, but that is precisely what I mean by overgeneralizing. You extrapolate from his domination of point guards in the post of pick-and-roll mismatches and some decent isolations against LeBron James, a notoriously bad defender, that Prince is a dominant scorer. You extrapolate from the numbers that James put up, conveniently ignoring the constant triple-teaming, that Prince is a lockdown defender. And when Prince has a game like he did two days ago, in which he's used and abused by Antoine Walker of all people on both ends of the court, that's my "inability to revise an opinion".

    Look - I like Tay. But he's an opportunistic scorer without many opportunities in this series. He's an average defender who can't guard anyone in this series. Recognizing the matchup problems that are posed - like Gregg Popovich did in yanking Nazr Mohammed from the starting lineup in favor of Finley - rather than kicking your heels together and hoping that Kansas reappears, might be prudent - especially in the playoffs, where every possession is important.
  16. max

    max All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    7,391
    Likes Received:
    381
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    my bunker in the Carribbean
    Hate to say it and I am sorry if I offend anyone but saying the Pistons need a bench like Dallas or PHX or Miami is a pile of crap. Its a non-informed knee jerk reaction.

    Dallas and others play their bench because they lack quality starters at every position. They start some guy and only play him 20 mins because there is no significant difference between what he can do and what the guy who subs for him can. Why is that so hard to understand?

    Pistons are not going to win or lose because of the bench. May get a lift and it would be welcomed from Dyess, Hunter, Evans or Delfino but that guy they subbed in for is going to be the best option to have on the floor 98% of the time.

    You want a bench? Lets start Delk, play him 10 mins and bring in Rip for the rest of the 38. Lets start Hunter, Delk and Evans. Billup, Tay and Rip come off the bench. That would be a fine bench, a great bench. Guaranteed to win the bench battle every single game.
  17. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,254
    Likes Received:
    2,116
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    I agree. He looks a lot like DeSagana Diop.

    We are on the same page with this.

    Maybe Miller, but not Terry. Terry started all 80 games he played this year, and has started every game in the playoffs. I'm sure there are exceptions (Memphis = eliminated) but the better teams do not. Right now, AJ is coaching out of his mind. Wait a couple years when spasmodically rotating players will get old and people will say he can't find horses to ride or define roles.

    Tay is the 4th option, but has been the most important player in several games now. It speaks to the fact the first 3 options have not played well that he has stepped to the forefront. I do not see him getting tired late. The Miami game was not lost late. He did not falter down the stretch of games 6 or 7 of the Cleveland series.

    San Antonio had the better bench. But if your starters cannot carry you, then no amount of Barry and Finley can make things right.

    Cleveland took us to 8 games because we played bad. Not because the waves of Damon Jones and Varejao off the bench turned the series.

    Yes, NJ, Indiana and Chicago aren't very good. That's my point. They had deep benches but it doesn't fix poor play by the starters. A deep bench doesn't solve a lack of size or poor execution.
  18. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,254
    Likes Received:
    2,116
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    You're a big fat fibber. I will respond to the rest later. Or maybe not. Playing semantic games is a sign that you are losing the battle.

    I edited out "liar" and substituted "fibber". No long term friction intended.
  19. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1,220
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    San Francisco
    That's true, to a greater or lesser extent depending on the team. However, the point that slippy originally made is that the Pistons essentially go 6 deep every night, with Dice and Hunter representing "half" of the trusted sixth man, rather than the 8 man rotation that's customary in the playoffs.

    The Pistons starters are not in all cases significantly more talented or better options than the guy who subs for him - definitely not better "98% of the time" - but the substitution pattern used in the regular season created a situation where that's the unit that has to be used whether it works - "produces", in themicrowave's parlance, or matches up well, or is needed due to injury, or not, in a particular situation during the playoffs.

    The reserves are confused about their roles, rusty, probably lack confidence, and definitely have little chemistry with the starters - making them near useless if necessity or a favorable matchup presents itself. That's a situation that
    could have been avoided.
  20. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    detroit
    nodody is calling for the bench to play major minutes except mcdyess. i think the other guys can be used for 10 minutes a game to give rest to the starters. they can be used for a spark when the starters are in a funk. mcdyess is not a significant dropoff from our starters and even he isn't getting the minutes.

    mcdyess is simply better than ben. mcdyess would be a 20 and 10 and 1.5 blocks guy if given ben's minutes.

    the other guys yes they aren't as good as the starters. but that's why it should be 80 20 it doesn't have to be 98%. the problem is when that other 2% comes up flip still won't sub. cola though that curry should be on the floor 98% of the time over tay. if tay hadn't been given that chance we never would have won that series.

    you don't always sub just because a player is better. ec should have been used more to bang and tire shaq. he isn't better than ben wallace but he should have played more. delfino checks driving players better than tay does so he should get some minutes on wade. rip can't hit the side of the barn. evans has a great shot if you pass it to him and don't ask him to move.

Share This Page