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Has Flip Sr. learned from past mistakes??

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Dlev59, Apr 12, 2007.

  1. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    I agree Flip looked good. But here is the question in my mind: isn't coaching job easier when the team is actually playing not coasting as they did throughout the season and everyone was on Flip for strategies and the bench play? He made the right move, but what if:
    • Lindsey would've continued his crappy offensive play
    • Maxiell didn't produce
    • Sheed was getting T'd along with Rip arguing with the refs?
    • All of the above caused Tay to play 45 minutes?
    I think there are two pieces to this puzzle. Because no matter how good the plan is - it won't work unless you have someone actually following through on that.
     
  2. st8ofmind

    st8ofmind Bench Warmer

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    I agree with all of that, his feet haven't been really held over the fire yet.

    2 things are really helping Flip Sr..

    - Webber being adequate on D and not %%%%%ing about not getting a ton of minutes, my actual point here was that we are not playing 4 of 5 on offense anymore because of Ben.

    - Delfino stepping way way way up, putting on the 'big boy pants' and making it easier to get Tay/Rip some serious rest.


    Also the jump shots are falling which is cruical for the stones, and Flip Jr has been a pleasant surprise after being a sub-CBA level player for the first 2/3 of the season.



    I was very very happy he gave Mad Max xtra run vs the Bulls. If he plays like dung you can always take him out.
     
  3. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    I guess that's why there is saying - the coach is only as good as the players on the team are. Maybe players actually like playing for Flip besides trying to win another championship.
     
  4. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    I don't believe that at all. Great coaches get more out of their teams than their roster would suggest on paper. Sloan consistently gets more out of his roster (save Malone/Stockton) than you see on paper. Same thing with LB and Don Nelson. Now, Nelson isn't a "great" coach, but he is playing the part this season getting tons more out of his roster (especially post season-wise) than he should.

    Coaches who only go as far as their talent takes them are avg coaches and could be replaced with anybody because the players will most likely perform in similar fashion no matter who is coaching.

    Poor coaches, i.e. Alvin Gentry/Don Cheney get little to nothing out of their rosters and have bad seasons everywhere they go. Now, this can show in terms of record and/or ineffective leadership, but nevertheless, bad coaches actually perform worse than their team on paper suggests they should.
     
  5. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    Low, you're correct. There is just one thing - if you have crappy players, it doesn't matter how good of a coach you are - you're not going to win anything. A better coach will get more out of the players, but won't win unless there is enough talent there. Utah struggled after Stockton and Malone retired, Larry only won when he was coaching Pistons.
     
  6. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    I couldn't resist...:stirthepot:

    How does that hold up when Ben produced more than Webber in game 1? It was the rest of the Bulls that failed to show their faces...

    ...and I'm sure Webber being "adequate" on D is up for debate.
     
  7. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    Low, do you think the minutes that those two played impact the numbers? Possibly with more minutes Web would've had more production.
     
  8. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Larry only won the title when coaching the Pistons, but his coaching ability took a one man show in Philly to The Finals. That's pretty darn good coaching in my book. As far as I'm concerned, all things being equal talent-wise, give me a coach that can get more out of great players, than a coach that can just get as far as great players will take him.
     
  9. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Not really because Webbers pt production has hovered around the 10-12 pt mark...Ben Wallace has pretty much been able to do that (8-10 pts) without having to be a major factor in the offensive scheme. Now, I can hear the 'Ah Ha!'s going off in people's heads right now, but not being a major factor and not being included at all are two different things and the extra 2 pts isn't enough to sell me on Webber being head and shoulders above any production Ben could have provided; especially when you factor in Rebs and Blks.

    If the rest of that team plays well, then Ben's numbers go up as well. So, I think it's pretty even. If Webber sat more because of the blowout...so did Ben.
     
  10. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    I take that back as I forgot that Ben played 35 min. The problem lies in that the rest of the Bulls failed to show. Unless Wallace turns into Kevin Garnett, there's nothing he can do by himself that would have saved the Bulls. The rest of those guys HAVE to show up.
     
  11. st8ofmind

    st8ofmind Bench Warmer

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    How bout factoring in assists and turnovers and "Guys not being able to play a 1 man zone vs. Ben's team", and points per minute might be interesting (or not :)), Oh yeah he has 'all time great' hands and Ben does not.

    And this is from a Sparty who doesn't care for Webber, (although I thank him for singlehandedly killing uOFm basketball), and loved(s) Ben.

    And of course he's playing at what 1/15th the price??? :pound:
     
  12. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    Isn't it low price only for Pistons? Philly paid pretty steep price to have the guy going for the 'ship with D-town. :hoops:
     
  13. st8ofmind

    st8ofmind Bench Warmer

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    Let's list the amount of time I think/care about Philly
    .
    .
    Time over.
     
  14. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    Exactly right Low.

    But he is being paid like a guy who can do it by himself. He's an extremely expensive "X" factor.

    The Pistons made the right decision under the circumstances.
     
  15. st8ofmind

    st8ofmind Bench Warmer

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    At 1 year less or 2-3 mill less a year they should have kept him.

    As I've said (and I'm sure many others) Ben is slipping and losing him will only hurt for about 1 or 1.5 years, and the last 2.5 or 3.5 years you are going to have a guy who's lost a step he couldn't afford to lose, is undersized, and can't score for 2x what we are paying Nazr.

    Besides Iverson I don't think a player in the league can afford to lose a step any less than Ben can.
     
  16. max

    max All-Star

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    I think Flip has been doing a great job this season. If you want to call it learning or simply exerting more of his style it has been an improvement.
    The team has peaked at just the right time and we have a bench now.

    LB the great did not think he needed to go more than 3 deep up front, even with his famous pull the guy with 2 1st half fouls rule.
    We can go 6 friggen deep now up front. Thats insane.

    Its an under estimate to say that any avg coach could have came in and did the same thing. True we don't have a HOF coach that plays favorites and ices certain players for no apparent reason anymore. Sorry that Flip could not provide that drama for you.

    Yes Philly had a great year in 01 but that was before LB drove that francise into the ground and left it for the highest bidder.
     
  17. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Can some one please define
    ?

    ...and who are we talking about, Rodney White?
     
  18. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Nevermind the fact that Philly is subsidizing our "great pickup." Had they not been willing to do so, we'd be talking about what more Nazr could do besides fill the Gatorade cooler.
     
  19. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    ...as did Ben.

    ...doesn't mean I like it any more.
     
  20. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    The only place Ben is slipping is the minds of people who want DET to play like PHX or DAL. Oh, and the little fact that scoring is not the end all in the game of basketball. Besides, If I'm getting 5 times the production of Nazr for 2x the price of Nazr...I can live with that.
     

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