Has Flip Sr. learned from past mistakes??

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Dlev59, Apr 12, 2007.

  1. st8ofmind

    st8ofmind Bench Warmer

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    The Book on Chris Webber Updated 1/22/2007 11:58 PM ET E-mail | Save | Print | [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG] Enlarge By Rebecca Cook, Reuters [​IMG] Chris Webber (84) "embodies everything we try to stand for as a basketball team and as an organization," said Pistons president Joe Dumars.


    swapContent('firstHeader','applyHeader');USA TODAY's David DuPree looks at how NBA stars play the game:
    The particulars: The 6-10, 245-pound Webber is playing the rest of this season at a prorated salary of approximately $700,000 from the Detroit Pistons after a buyout on the last two years of his contract with the Philadelphia 76ers. He agreed to give the 76ers $2 million this season and $2 million next season when he was due to make about $43 million over the two years. He sustained a knee injury in the 2002-03 playoffs that has severely limited his mobility. Webber, 33, is a five-time All-Star (1997, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003) and a former rookie of the year (1994).
    Road to the Pistons: He was the first overall pick of the 1993 draft by the Orlando Magic (selected after his sophomore season at Michigan); draft rights were traded to the Golden State Warriors for the draft rights to Penny Hardaway and three first-round draft choices; was traded by the Warriors to the Washington Wizards (then Bullets) for Tom Gugliotta and three first-round draft picks after his rookie season; traded to the Sacramento Kings for Mitch Richmond and Otis Thorpe after four seasons with Washington; traded by the Kings to the 76ers along with Michael Bradley and Matt Barnes for Kenny Thomas, Corliss Williamson and Brian Skinner midway through the 2004-05 season; signed with the Pistons as a free agent on Jan. 16.
    Style: Once a great leaper and open-court player, he is now more of a stationary player, relying on his smarts and positioning more than sheer athletic ability. He still has great hands and is an excellent passer who is very effective at the high post. He loves to shoot flat-footer jumpers from either elbow.
    Go-to-move: The jump hook. He gets position on the block, puts the ball on the floor one time going toward the basket and then flips it in over his shoulder.
    How to defend him: Crowd him out high and dare him to put the ball on the floor. When he is in the post, force him to the baseline, where he is far less effective than when he can turn toward the basket. You have to screen him off of the glass because he is sneaky around the basket.
    By the numbers: He has 22 career triple-doubles and nine career games of 20 points and 20 rebounds. He went into this season as one of only five active players with career averages of more than 20 points and 10 rebounds. He's averaging 9.7 points, 7.3 rebounds and three assists in 28.3 minutes a game in three games with the Pistons, the last two as the starting center
    His peers: Was a member of Michigan's Fab Five along with Juwan Howard (Houston Rockets) and Jalen Rose (Phoenix Suns). The only other active players in the league from Webber's 1993 draft class are Sam Cassell (L.A. Clippers) and Lindsey Hunter (Pistons). Besides Webber and Hardaway, the other top players from that draft were Allan Houston, Shawn Bradley, Jamal Mashburn, Bobby Hurley, Vin Baker and Gheorghe Muresan.
    Former player he is most readily compared to: Jerry Lucas. He also made a living at the high post and had a somewhat unorthodox jumper; was clever, a reliable rebounder and excellent passer.
    Pistons president of basketball operations Joe Dumars says: "He embodies everything we try to stand for as a basketball team and as an organization. He is what we want to be about. He's more than just a basketball player."
























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    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].84 Chris Webber Detroit Pistons[/FONT] [​IMG] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Position: PF
    Born: 3/01/73
    Height: 6-10 / 2,08
    Weight: 245 lbs. / 111,1 kg.
    College: Michigan '95
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A really big talent... Great footwork in the low post... Fake master... Has incredible hands... Able to grab almost any pass... Excellent vision of the court... Good ballhandler for his position... Sometimes falls too much in love with his not always effective mid-range shot... Especially after his last surgery... Turnover prone... Injury prone... Not nearly as athletic or quick as he was before the last knee injury... High
    maintenance.



    [/FONT]
    `I'M REALLY CONFIDENT WITH THESE HANDS'

    Hermann shows hands of skill

    Walter Herrmann has been the Charlotte Bobcats' most pleasant surprise during the team's late-season surge. Herrmann, a 6-foot-9 rookie from Argentina, is averaging 19.6 points in eight games in April.
    Among the attributes that set him apart are two huge hands -- each of which is large enough to nearly cover the width of a newspaper page.
    Big hands can help define an NBA career: Ask Julius Erving, Kobe Bryant, Chris Webber or Herrmann's boss in the Bobcats' front office, Michael Jordan.
    Here are a few things you should know about Herrmann and his hands:
  2. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    What's insane is "LB the Great" got this team to two Finals appearances and most people are the most happy with the guy that game in won a bunch of regular season games, got bounced in the ECF, made excuses, and had a playoff history full of 1st round exits. Silly me. At the very least, "The Great" had a history of improving the teams he took over, not keeping them running in place.

    Oh, don't feel bad for me...I've quite enjoyed the Flip Saunders Excuse-Fest since last season's playoffs.
  3. st8ofmind

    st8ofmind Bench Warmer

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    I'm not comparing him to Nazr. And again this is coming from a huge Ben fan.

    It was blatantly obvious to me he wasn't even close the the player/force he was in 04' last year, and he's just going to lose more and more spring every season.

    He's always gotten it done with toughness and athleticism and the athleticism is going bye bye.

    You're not getting 10 mill a year production out of Ben right now. You just aren't.

    We are getting 10 mill a year out of sheed though. :)
  4. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    That can happen when your new coach has no clue how to utilize your strengths.

    Besides, it's quite clear that Wallace's athleticism has gone nowhere. Sure, his overall numbers decreased, but that was a result of Saunders' coaching, not a loss of athleticism. You can have a bad season statistically with out geriatrics being the reason. It's amazing how people here can talk about one of the most physically fit players in the game like he's in a walker. I guess it's just easier to invent whatever makes people feel better.
  5. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Larry's list of improvements are centered predominantly in the regular season.

    It's fairly hypocritical to hail him as great while dismissing Saunders every move.
  6. st8ofmind

    st8ofmind Bench Warmer

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    I'm more of an LB fan than Flip guy myself but you just appear more than a step or two off your rocker here.

    I'm not even beginning to question his work habits or his conditioning, that would be about as intelligent as calling Rip a fat ass.

    Did I once point at Ben's stats? Ben is the epitome of a guy where the stat's don't indicate his worth.
  7. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Hardly, Brown's history shows he has been able to get more than expected out of his players where Saunders has routinely been able to only get what's expected from his roster on paper. None of his rosters in Minny showed overall improvement from year to year. His players didn't learn how to become better over the course of their careers (individually), they simply did what they had become proficient at up to that point.
  8. st8ofmind

    st8ofmind Bench Warmer

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    Kevin McHale 1st round draft pick/Joe Smith Death sentence + losing Chauncey + Brandon career ending injury + the West being murderously tough.

    Gee, I wonder why he struggled in the playoffs.

    Sans the baggage I'd take LB over Flip any day of the week don't get me wrong, but LB must have been toilet trained at gun point or something because he would WAY OVER micromanage making a PB&J sammy let alone the last :05 of a quarter.
  9. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Flip wasn't coaching him this year.

    And the natural decline of a players athleticism is unfortunately inevitable. Despite what that player and his fans wish to happen.

    I respect you for sticking to your guns on this subject.

    It's got to sting a little to see defense from a team that according to you hasn't cared about it for almost two years now.

    I guess they are just "remembering how to play defense" correct?

    Nah, because if they can remember how to do it after more than a year surely they could have remembered how to do it after a matter of months couldn't they?

    Oh yea, one problem. Defense is predicated on effort, and one of the team captains didn't feel like giving an effort if he wasn't calling all the shots on both ends of the floor.

    So when do you admit that perhaps Flip was onto something? After they tattoo the Bulls into the second round exit book? Or are you only claiming this current team (coach included) is pretty darned good if they win it all?
  10. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Not at all...judging by your post count you obviously haven't been a part of the hundreds of posts I've been subject to chronicling the imminent demise of Wallace's aging frame, all the while hailing an older, less mobile Webber as just the thing we needed. My response was less directly at you, than it was the overall sentiment I've experienced in the forum.
  11. st8ofmind

    st8ofmind Bench Warmer

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    False he went nowhere in the playoffs (NBA NOT ABA) except with the stones (a turnkey operation), and Philly 1 time.

    what other playoff sucess did he have? Getting smoked by Detroit in Tay's rookie year?

    Doing nothing with a legit Spurs team, or a legit Pacers team?
  12. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    So are you saying that what the Pistons are doing right now is merely what you expect?

    Then why the tentativeness when you were making your series prediction?
    I call BS.
    Hard to get more than whats expected when all some people will settle for is a championship.
  13. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Regardless of what you'd like to pin on me...You can research this board from top to bottom and you will not be able to dispute that I've said this team has ECF talent, at best. The true test comes from whether or not the coach is able to get more than is expected from his group of guys. LB was able to do that to the tune of pummeling the Lakers (a group people were picking to sweep DET) and coming up just a few points shy in a game 7 in the Finals ON THE ROAD. "Fans" get so high off potential sometimes that they just toss proven methods out the window. I'm not a slappy...sue me.
  14. st8ofmind

    st8ofmind Bench Warmer

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    It is almost a wash with Webber and Ben.

    Webber other than his athleticism is a near perfect 4/5 offensive player, Ben is just the opposite. Chris makes up for shortcomings by having great hands.

    Wallace other than his height is the PERFECT defensive player, Webber is just the opposite except he has long long arms still. Ben struggles with some seemingly easy things because he has bad hands.

    They are both essentially specialists.

    It's tough to hide Chris on D, and it's tough to not have Ben be a huge detriment on O.

    And again, Chris costs 1/15th of what Ben does, and is not a long term salary obligation.
  15. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    My post said nothing about winning titles every year.
  16. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    It is questionable whether Brown got less or more out of AI. AI had a really tumultuous time of it when he played for Brown. Since then he has been like a choir boy. Of course that could just be do to maturity.

    Certainly Brown didn't get anything out of Darko or much out of Okur in the 2004 playoffs. He didn't even get much of anything out of Delfino.

    As to whether he was the ingredient that motivated Sheed in 2004 or it was the other Piston players, especially Ben, I am inclined to go with the latter choice.

    :hoops:
  17. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    When you have enough talent to win a Championship...why would you settle for anything else?

    Besides, my hesitation is based on Flips coaching which has nothing to do with my own expectations.
  18. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    And yet you discount how lucky those Pistons teams were during both playoff runs?

    They readily admitted it while you deify the coach and your previously favorite player.

    Of course you're no slappy.
  19. st8ofmind

    st8ofmind Bench Warmer

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    I agree with all of that. Except they have Finals talent (in the East), maybe WCF talent in the west.

    Other than LB's overmanagement (at times, and not really an important issue), and his need for the spotlight and persona problems (a huge issue), he's the perfect coach.

    The game was TIED going into the 4th Q in game 7 @ SA. TIED.

    If anybody but Sheed shows up in the 4th (he was a monster), and the Spurs don't get a million whistles we are talking about back to back titles.

    :gun1:Ginobili
  20. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    In my opinion the Pistons would have won in 2004 even if Dick Vitale had coached that team. In fact I believe that they lost in 2005 because of the way that Brown handled the substitutions and the bench.

    :hoops:

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