1. Football Picks Survivor is done for 2014. Congrats to billlaimbeer from The Pistons Forum

Heat/Bulls Series

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Pwn Toney, Apr 21, 2007.

  1. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,794
    Likes Received:
    2,636
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    You silly man. You practically own the chat.

    But ahb and I came up with the hyperbolic zone.
     
  2. max

    max All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    7,449
    Likes Received:
    451
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    my bunker in the Carribbean
    From what I have seen in Chic Ben has mainly been used as a bit player, a tanglible player. A lot like Michael Curry.

    Its still not too late. You can actually enjoy this playoff run with the rest of us. Pistons are going to beat the Bulls.
     
  3. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2005
    Messages:
    3,341
    Likes Received:
    530
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Invoking the name of one #12 will not assist you in making the completely absurd notion that there was some form of parallel between Big Ben and one M. Curry.

    I'll enjoy my playoff run from right where I am, sir.
     
  4. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,794
    Likes Received:
    2,636
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    I love you guys. Seriously.
     
  5. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2005
    Messages:
    3,341
    Likes Received:
    530
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    and THAT, sir, is a crime for which you shall never be forgiven....NEVER!!! :yellowprison:
     
  6. max

    max All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    7,449
    Likes Received:
    451
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    my bunker in the Carribbean

    C'mon Low. Leave the past behind. Ben got what he wanted and he is where he wants to be. Same for LB.

    Get back on the bandwagon my friend.

    Name me 1 other team that performs better on the road and better in crunch time? We have a great team here that has peaked at just the right time.

    Pistons in 5.
     
  7. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2006
    Messages:
    2,609
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    a cave
    I don't know about completely....

    6 games against the Heat- 4 Blocked shots total

    But not for lack of trying right?

    Wrong.

    Averaged less than 3 fouls per as well.


    In fact, if you take away the one game in which Ben gave the slightest impression of his standard effort (IMO):

    Ben averages .2 blocks per game over a 5 game stretch.

    This is key for me considering that the Heat were entering the paint with reckless abandon and scoring at will.

    However, I will concede that this is subjective. It is just the foundation of my feelings about Bens effort combined with the body language I saw from him out on the floor last year.
     
  8. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2005
    Messages:
    3,341
    Likes Received:
    530
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Again, this goes back to Saunders' strategy of double and triple teaming Shaq. If Ben is one of 2 or 3 people on Shaq and he dumps the ball off to a cutter for a layup/dunk...unless the transporter has been invented, there's no way Ben can be in two places at once.

    Additionally, Ben has always been able to block shots without fouling (hence 4 DPOY awards) so using his lack of fouls as proof of lack of effort doesn't really make sense to me.

    At the end of the day, you're welcome to your opinion. Yet, Flip himself has said as recently as yesterday that it's his job to put the players in the best position to be successful. As far as I am concerned he did not do this when he had Ben Wallace on his roster and the 5 years of Ben Wallace basketball before his arrival are all the evidence I require.
     
  9. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2005
    Messages:
    3,341
    Likes Received:
    530
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    The past is behind...however, in my book that doesn't mean that embracing a flawed approach is progress. There are ways this team could maintain a defensive focus without resigning Wallace and rehiring Brown. I said it earlier, we have to be the only team in NBA history to win a title and then promptly be jedi mind tricked into thinking that WE have to adjust to the rest of the league.

    My grievances aren't with the past, they are with the present. If this team proves to me that they won't repeat all the bad habits I've seen from them all year (which is just what they did on their way to elimination last year), then I'll be the first one in here to tell you I was wrong. That doesn't make me a Bulls fan. It just makes me unwilling to eat the "cornbread" ©2006 WDFN.

    As for your team that executes better in crunch time.....San Antonio Spurs. They may not win it. But, one thing they do is step on your neck and don't screw around with teams that aren't as good as them.
     
  10. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    9,944
    Likes Received:
    622
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Los Lunas, NM
    Can we play 5 on 4 when BBeen is in there?
     
  11. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    17,734
    Likes Received:
    3,082
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicaaago
    Here is my argument for why Flip Saunders has not ignored defense.

    2005-06 season
    The Pistons allowed 103 points per 100 possessions.
    The other team shot an eFG% of .478
    We blocked 7.6% of shot attempts
    The Pistons caused turnovers on 15% of opponent possessions

    2006-07 season
    The Pistons allowed 104 points per 100 possessions.
    The other team shot an eFG% of .478
    We blocked 7.4% of shot attempts
    The Pistons caused turnovers on 16% of opponent possessions


    Our only real problem was that our offense got worse this year, which was due to our lower eFG%. I did not break it out since Webber though, so these numbers include the Nazr games too. We also had some absences by Billups, Rip, Webber, and Sheed, which was not the case last year. Also, you could argue that we weren't pushing for wins as hard this year and tried to incorporate the bench more.
     
  12. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2005
    Messages:
    3,341
    Likes Received:
    530
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Well, strictly going by the numbers there is a visible trend away from the defensive strengths this team showed under LB. The true test of the defensive presense is NOT from Saunders 1st year until this year...it's BEFORE Saunders arrived to this year as follows:


    Under Larry Brown (Opp PPG = 86.9)
    2003-2004 Season
    The Pistons allowed 84.3 PPG
    The other team shot 41.3%
    The other team gave up 14.7 TO/game
    the other team avg'd 40.7 reb/game
    Stls 8.0
    Blks 7.0
    Reb 42.8

    2004-2005 Season
    The Pistons allowed 89.5 PPG
    The other team shot 43%
    The other team gave up 13.1 TO/game
    the other team avg'd 39.6 reb/game
    Stls 7.0
    Blks 6.1
    Reb 43.4


    Under Flip Saunders (Opp PPG = 91.0)
    2005-2006 Season
    The Pistons allowed 90.2 PPG
    The other team shot 45.2%
    The other team gave up 13.0 TO/game
    the other team avg'd 40.9 reb/game
    Stls 7.1
    Blks 6.0
    Reb 40.5

    2006-2007
    The Pistons allowed 91.8 PPG
    The other team shot 44.5%
    The other team gave up 13.9 TO/game
    the other team avg'd 41.2 reb/game
    Stls 7.1
    Blks 5.8
    Reb 40.5



    While Opp turnovers were highlighted during LB's first season, there is essentially an increase of 4 ppg by our opponents and also a slight increase in our opponent's FG% (2-3%) which came from teams getting easier shots in the lane more often. Our steals, blocks, and rebounds are also showing a trend of decline after Saunders arrival which tells me that the more he gets "comfortable" with implementing his system and running it his way, we will continue to get worse defensively over the life of his tenure.
     
  13. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2006
    Messages:
    2,609
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    a cave
    I personally think those numbers are not going to be cut and dry when you consider the extra years of age our guys have put behind them and perhaps more importantly the legislated change in the way the game was called for the championship winning Pistons team versus the teams of today.

    Some of the best man defenders before the rules change aren't quite as prolific as they used to be, and that hurt the way LB had us playing ball.

    Were the Pistons a better defensive team then? Of course; nevertheless, 4 years is and awfully long time for guys knocking down 30.
     
  14. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,794
    Likes Received:
    2,636
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    I'd like to see the statistical difference between LB and Flip when it comes to offense.
     
  15. anakin

    anakin First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2006
    Messages:
    933
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you by any chance have league wide stats as a comparator to indicate the general trend or comparison to another good club the Spurs?
     
  16. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2005
    Messages:
    3,341
    Likes Received:
    530
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    I could put that together for you, but it was already mid-night when I jumped into this one. I'll see what I can do after work today.
     
  17. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2005
    Messages:
    3,341
    Likes Received:
    530
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Maybe, but there is no argument that Saunders altered this teams approach to the game. We can bend the numbers all year long, but what really makes the difference is how you approach the game and your overall strategy. Regardless of age, if you have the personnel to play a certain style and then you abandon that style halfway through the tenure of that core group, you are less likely to experience the same level of success no matter how well you execute.
     
  18. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    17,734
    Likes Received:
    3,082
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicaaago
    Here is some results from my data mining:

    All of these stats are per 100 possessions, so that we can compare the Pistons to the Spurs and also to prior seasons.

    Pistons
    Year/ Off / Def/ Diff/ Coach
    06-07/ 109/ 104/ +5/ Flip
    05-06/ 111/ 103/ +8/ Flip
    04-05/ 105/ 101/ +4/ LB
    03-04/ 103/ 96/ +7/ LB
    02-03/ 107/ 103/ +4/ Cola

    Spurs
    Year/ Off / Def/ Diff/ Coach
    06-07/ 110/ 101/ +9/ Pop
    05-06/ 108/ 100/ +8/ Pop
    04-05/ 108/ 99/ +9/ Pop
    03-04/ 104/ 96/ +8/ Pop
    02-03/ 107/ 101/ +6/ Pop

    So, what is the conclusion? I don't think Popovich has abandoned his defensive focus, and yet the Spurs are allowing 5 more points per 100 possessions than they were in 03-04. They are also scoring 6 more points themselves.

    From LB's first year to his second, we saw a 5 point slide in our own defense, even though he was still focusing on it. There was a little more slide with Flip, but it is similar to the continued slide of the Spurs defense. So, maybe Flip is holding our D constant and the rules are to blame. It's like adjusting for inflation.

    But, our offense has exploded with our best years in the last 5. Whatever he is doing, it is resulting is a bigger point spread, which should be the goal.
     
  19. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2006
    Messages:
    2,609
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    a cave
    How much of that is due to people's natural resistance to change (on both sides)?

    Unfortunately, teams were forced to abandon LB's style. I just about spit up my Cheerios hearing about how Popovich has adopted a Zone strategy in anticipation of playing a team like Phoenix in the playoffs. It's not full blown Saunders type stuff I'm sure, but even he has finally acknowledged that the philosophy has some merit to it.

    I'm not sure how realistic it would have been to expect Flip to not have different views. Flip and LB probably make a grilled cheese sandwich differently as well. In the end you still have two grilled cheese sandwiches.

    The funny part is that the Pistons team of two years ago would most likely prefer whichever sandwich they thought was Larry Brown's to Flip's, even if the same ingredients were used.

    Aren't fans kind of like that as well?

    I miss LB. I miss Ben. But if this years Pistons can learn from last years mistakes and win the title...I'll miss them less.

    I really missed reading some of you guy's stuff. Your different perspectives and points of view are very refreshing. :)
     
  20. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2006
    Messages:
    12,306
    Likes Received:
    1,503
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lake Elmo

    This is what a good team does for its fans...........................
     

Share This Page