Discussion in 'Tigers and Baseball' started by ggazoo69, May 6, 2007.
I agree. The next generation often pays the consequences for our stupidity.
McGuire had now illegal prohormones in his locker. Bonds didn't. In the sports world most reporters take speculation to the bank, proof for the eyes to see like the kind Mac threw out there is like finding a gold mine. Bonds hasn't been positively tested or actually quoted as having used drugs.
The book you seem to take as pure fact contains a lot of baseless unproven speculation. Just because someone writes it doesn't make it true.
I've got two books for you (or anyone else) to read and possibly implement before you jump to these kinds of conclusions:
1. Natural Hormonal Enhancement- Rob Faigin
2. The Anabolic Diet- Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale
Todays society seems more "magic pill" oriented than ever before, all the while overlooking the fact that drugs merely mimic or supplant the naturally occuring chemical reactions that are achieved when eating food.
Thats right, good old wholesome food. The kicker is that often the body can do it better than the pills do. Anyone willing to implement Di Pasquales bulking diet with a vigilant exercise regimen will have quite a different view of things when they start getting accused of being on drugs they have never even laid eyes on.
Like I indicated in my earlier in post #13, if Aaron and Selig would just come out and say they will be there instead of ignoring the situation or sitting on the fence, national sentiment will probably more positive or a little more excited about covering the event than ESPN is.
Everyone's not going to celebrate the accomplishment, but if the current record holder is alive and able, he should at least be in attendance to aknowledge it and be there to congratuate Bonds. Willie Mays, who is probably more beloved than both Bonds or Aaron, will be on hand to praise his godson. The picture of the three of them standing there shaking hands or hugging with the retrieved ball will be a valuable photo itself.
Bud Selig will cause more controversy for not being in attendence than for being there to congratuate Bonds when they stop play. In other words get over the controversy now and just come out and say that this is how we will handle the event and this is who will be there ....case close.
What McGwire had in his locker (andro) was not illegal under U.S. law at the time (it only became illegal in '04), and while it was banned by the NFL at that time (I mean 1998), baseball had no rules banning anything. So for McGwire to have taken that substance at that time didn't amount to much at all--he was, quite literally, not breaking any relevant rules by taking it. But when he broke down in his Congressional testimony, it was...well...pretty obvious that he wasn't just thinking about the andro he had been taking.
The book was partly based on grand jury testimony (including Bonds' testimony) that was leaked by one of the BALCO chief's lawyers. Again, I'm obviously not saying that Bonds should be thrown in jail over it--that's not how the legal system works. And as I've said, those who called for him to be suspended because of what was written in the book were also wrong, because it would be unfair to do that to one guy while everyone else who didn't have books written about them gets away with it. But I continue to be amazed that people really believe that Bonds (plus a whole bunch of other guys) wasn't using illegal steroids.
Where it gets complicated is in deciding what to do about that, since baseball itself, by celebrating all the dingers without doing a damn thing about all the juicing that was going on, is far more responsible for failing to police itself than Bonds (or any other player) is for not having policed himself.
Firstly, I mentioned that the substance was now illegal, and the legality at the time doesn't mean anything in terms of efficacy. A steroid is a steroid, legal or not. People knew that then, thus the heat Mac took.
What people fail to realize is that there were countless other "legal" steroids then, and there are numerous legal steroids now.
Surely this knowledge would be enough to make anyone short of a lawyer and a chemist falter on the stand?
And yet how convenient that the "leaked testimony" cannot be corroborated by the facts?
Once again, noone is drawing a line between what is illegal now and what was legal then. 15 year old kids were buying steroids from GNC back then, any athletes who were using them run the risk now of being labeled "dopers", regardless of whether or not the product was on the same shelf as coral calcium at Vitamin World, not to mention that these steroids were added into protein powders and energy drinks.
What I challenge you to do is find the book "anabolic diet", follow the bulking program, and then get back to me when "it is obvious" that you are taking drugs.
My contention is that noone not directly involved knows for sure whether Bonds used illegal steroids or not. The more you learn about nutrition and how to manipulate the factors essential for natural growth, the more the lines begin to blur between who is obviously a steroid user and who isn't.
But he didn't take much heat for it--not back then (in '98). His canonization continued almost uninterrupted. It was only after his Congressional testimony (following the Canseco book) that his credibility took a nosedive. I also think most people still don't hold McGwire "accountable" for taking andro back then, and I agree with that position--it wasn't illegal under the law, and baseball wasn't banning anything, so why should he police himself according to someone else's rules? Taking illegal steroids, on the other hand, is a different issue, whether baseball itself was testing for them or not. And McGwire's testimony made it pretty clear to most viewers that he wasn't just referring to the andro, which everyone had already known about for years.
Anyway, I brought up McGwire to rebut the "people are going after Bonds just because they've never liked him" argument. McGwire was practically a saint before the steroid issue really came to the forefront, and yet his reputation has now been destroyed by it. The fact that people liked (and even worshipped) him was of no use to him at all in softening the blow of the steroid issue.
On your other points, I can agree that what is and isn't illegal, or what does or doesn't get mixed together, is a complicated issue that always presents problems for the testing agencies. The "dopers" are usually a few steps ahead of the watchdogs, sometimes with stuff that's perfectly legal under the law.
A lot of the older players...Frank Robinson for example...might have been contenders for the home run record too if they would have kept themselves in better shape. Harmon Killebrew is another guy that could have done it.
I read a biography of Robinson and it's amazing that he was able to accomplish what he did with all the injuries he had to play through. Killebrew was my guy growing up as a kid in Minnesota.
With the drugs and training techniques available to these modern players I don't really think any broken records are valid or interesting. Hank Aaron will always be the home run king.
I remember the year Brady Anderson hit fifty home runs...guys like that never used to be home run kings.
Career Stats for Barry BONDS, Henry AARON, Willie MAYS.........
Aaron: Hr - 755 / RBI - 2297 / AVE - 305 / Hits - 3771
Mays: Hr - 660 / RBI - 1903 / AVE - 302 / Hits - 3283
Bonds: Hr - 745 / RBI - 1953 / AVE - 299 / Hits - 2841
I've always been amazed at the stats of Hank Aaron. He did so well for so long. He never made it big in the public eye. Not like Willie Mays or Babe Ruth did. I've always felt he was my favorite player of all time. For me, it's all about Bonds personna. That's why I don't like him. I would not have liked TY Cobb either. Heard too many first hand stories about him. Many here have presented good reasons why Barry Should be honored when he breaks the record. I'm only interested in who attends, and who does not...............
See this is where the issue can become clouded. There were and are plenty of legal steroids that will cause you to test positive for the same metabolites that are present after the use of illegal counterparts.
Andro is just one of literally hundreds of possibilities, and I seriously doubt anyone would be better off once they started naming their favorites from the list, legal or not.
I was reading Todd Jones's column in The Sporting News this week and it seems he's indicating the magazine is going to cover the HR record by putting Aaron on the cover and running a full piece on him.............
Personally, I'll be very happy when A-Rod breaks Bonds' HR record. Currently, A-Rod is only 31 and he's alread hit almost 500 HRs. If he averages a mear 30 HRs a year over the next 10 years, he'll easily hit 800, eclipsing both Bonds and Aaron.
Say what you want about A-Rod, he has never been implicated in any drug scandal. Hopefully, A-Rod breaking the record will put this whole "asterisk" controversy behind us forever.
The fans voted him to start in the All Star game, and I never go against the wishes of the fans when it comes to these type of honors. We'll just have to see how the voting goes for the HOF. Gotta feeling he'll get in. I know I won't be invited to the festivities.
Bonds will get in. The writers' thinking will be that he put up HOF numbers before he was allegedly on the juice. He racked up a few MVP awards before then, too.
Tonight is the Home Run Derby. Surprised to see Bonds won't participate. He'd be at home where HIS fans could cheer him on. Anything he did during those festivities would be received well. Especially since he's trying to break the HR record. Shame he can't do this event for those fans in SF who helped vote him into the All Star game. Makes his last interview where he talks about "defending my house" seem irrevelant.................
I'm sure Bonds is afraid of tweaking something in the derby that might jeopardize his eventual HR record...one more reason to dislike him...he doesn't even care about his hometown fans.
Hey...even Barry Bonds is an A-Rod fan.
BONDS & A-ROD POUR ON THE PRAISE | By KEVIN KERNAN | Sports News | Scores | Results
“Like I told Alex, man, you’ll break it,” Bonds said when asked if - unlike Aaron for him - he would be there if and when someone breaks his record. “And when you do, you don’t have to worry about calling me. I’ll call you. If you want me there, I’ll be there. I’ll be there in a heartbeat.”
Bonds has been a great player throughout his career. It's too bad he got caught up in this steroid scandal. I'm sure he saw much lesser players like McGwire and Sosa hitting 70 HRs a year, and thought, "If those clowns can do it, why not me?"
Bonds to A-Rod: "Only use a small amount of 'flax seed' oil so that it's not detectable." A-Rod listens intently.
All other caption entries are welcome!
A-Rod to Bonds- What was the worst side affect when you took steroids?
Bonds to A-Rod- My wife actually noticed it. He uses hand gesture
Separate names with a comma.