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How does the new core (thus far) compare to the '04 core?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by blueadams, Feb 23, 2012.

  1. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    Even as much as we've been (stupidly) winning, we're still in line to have the 6th or 7th most ping-pong balls; so I'm going to optimistically assume that we're still able to get a solid big man (Jared Sullinger) in the draft.....forget about free agents because we're not going to have any cap-space (even if we release CV or BG).....and I'm not even going to bother speculating about trades at this point.

    Starters:

    C: B. Wallace....................G. Monroe
    PF: R. Wallace....................*J. Sullinger*
    SF: T. Prince....................T. Prince
    SG: R. Hamilton....................R. Stuckey
    PG: C. Billups....................B. Knight

    Bench:
    C: E. Campbell....................J. Jerebko
    PF: M. Okur....................C. Villanueva
    SF: C. Williamson....................A. Daye
    SG: L. Hunter....................B. Gordon
    PG: M. James....................W. Bynum

    Reserves:

    D. Ham, D. Milicic....................B. Wallace, J. Maxiel, D. Wilkins, W. Russell, V. Macklin





    *****





    Thoughts: Surprisingly close.

    Starters:

    B. Wallace v. G. Monroe. Overall, Ben was probably a better player in 04' than Greg is now. But Ben was very polished then, and Greg is still very raw. Greg's superior offensive abilities, and his decent defensive abilities almost cancel out Ben's unbelievable defensive skill, and his complete lack of offensive capabilities. It's not completely insane to imagine that a polished Greg Monroe could be a better overall player than Ben Wallace.

    R. Wallace v. *J. Sullinger*. Obviously, this is pure speculation. Sheed was one of the very best big men in the league in 04. Does Jared have that kind of potential? I certainly think so, but I'm in the very distinct minority there. Not much else that can be said here.

    T. Prince v. T. Prince. The Prince of '04 vs. the Prince of today? Honestly...not that much difference. Athleticism has never been much of his game. And polish has more or less made up length of tooth. Irregardless, Tay will probably need to be replaced before this team is ever ready for a real run...so unless Jonas or Daye really steps up...the 2013 1st rd. draft pick might be compared here.

    R. Hamilton v. R. Stuckey. Sort of similar to the Ben v. Greg comparision, but not as close. Rip was a far superior player in '04 to Rodney of today. But again, we're talking about a polished player v. a very raw player. Does Rodney have the potential to someday be as good as Rip? Maybe...

    C. Billups v. B. Knight. Again, sort of similar to the Ben v. Greg comparision, but again, not as close. Chauncey was a far superior player in '04 to Brandon of today. But yet again, we're talking about a polished player v. a very raw player. Does Brandon have the potential to someday be as good as Chauncey? Maybe...

    Bench:

    E. Campbell v. J. Jerebko. Not exactly the same kind of player, but filling (or at least should be) more or less the same role on the team. If you're asking me who I'd rather have, I'd tell you Jonas.

    M. Okur v. C. Villanueva. Really, very similar players. Very close.

    C. Williamson v. A. Daye. Corliss in '04 was much more polished than Daye of today. But Daye's certainly got at least that kind of potential.

    L. Hunter v. B. Gordon. Without hesitation, you'd rather have Ben G.

    M. James v. W. Bynum. More or less pretty similar players in terms of skill level.

    Reserves:

    D. Ham, D. Milicic, etc. v. B. Wallace, J. Maxiel, D. Wilkins, W. Russell, V. Macklin, etc. Who really cares about reserves? Either way, not a drastic difference in talent-level here.





    *****





    Conclusion: Maybe Joe-D's not quite as scatter-brained as we've been suspecting.

    We're, in summation, talking about a very polished team v. a very raw team. But the potential to at least be as close to good is very apparently there. And the bench might even be better right now than it was back then. The development of G. Monroe, R. Stuckey, B. Knight, and (hypothetically) J. Sullinger is what will ultimately decide how far this team goes. If there's one "missing ingredient"...it's team attitude. That '04 squad was just about the hardest working squad basketball had ever seen. This current squad is very, very far from that. How do you acquire that kind of competitiveness? Good question. Part of it was having a group of very professional players, which comes with age to some extent. But the other side of it was simply a group of ultra-competitive players (led by B. Wallace). Will the current core ever have that? Not under of the leadership of Tayshaun Prince, I don't think. If there's one place to look for a replacement, that might be where it is.
     
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  2. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I love your optimism, but you think adding Sullinger turns a team winning at a 30% rate into a contender?

    Jerebko is the only "player" on your current bench. A contender needs depth.

    The '12 Prince is not the '04 Prince and the '04 Prince was just a "glue guy."
     
  3. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

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    2004 guards were much better than what we have now............
     
  4. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I think quality of coach is important. The MVP of the 2004 team was Larry Brown IMO.
     
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  5. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    I think that a great draft pick...along with all-around development of raw players...along with a more professional/competitive team attitude...could turn us into contenders, yes.

    And the bench that we have right now, when you compare it to the bench we had then, IMO (which appears to be different than yours), it's not much worse talent-wise.

    And, again, IMO (which is different), I don't think what Tayshaun brings to the table now is much different than what he ever has in his career.
     
  6. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    Agreed, but how good were Chauncey and Rip at 19 and 25 years old?
     
  7. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    Very true. Right now, there are only about 2 or 3 coaches out there that are better than anybody else. Poppovich, Carlisle...I really couldn't tell you who else. Frank's alright. Maybe we could get Jerry Sloan to come out of retirement??
     
  8. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    Don't think this is a good comparison. You are comparing a finished product with a work in progress. A better comparison would be a 2003 or earlier team.

    One of the problems we have with the team stems from leadership and chemistry. Tay is a glue guy. Very effective when the machine is working fine. Once our play breaks down and he asserts himself, its bad news. He's a 3rd option finisher...not a facilitator. Stuckey had gotten overzealous with leading the team by thinking he could carry the team himself. His value is that older brother energy + constant aggresiveness. When these two guys try to take over, they take out the rest of the team. We lose cohesiveness and we can't win without easy buckets.

    The 2004-2005 teams had a definite pecking order. We lived and died by Chauncey running the offense. Ben Wallace asserted himself on the other end. Rip could never usurp Billups because his game was entirely off ball. The pieces fit together better.
     
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  9. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

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    Rip and Chauncey were 25 and 27 when the magical season occured.

    Stuckey turns 26 soon, and should be in his prime. Knight at 20 still has plenty of time to develop.
     
  10. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    A good way to compare would be to just look at the W's.
     
  11. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    I find it quite amusing that when comparing 2004 Rip to 2012 Stuckey, you give the edge to Rip but only because Stuck is "raw"? It is a crimson flag when a 5th year NBA player is "raw". I don't think Stuckey is raw at all. He just isn't as good of a player as Rip was in his prime.

    Knight/Billups, time will tell. I'll buy that.

    Tay04/Tay12 - not even close. Tay04 could, and more importantly care enough to, play defense.

    Sheed/Sullinger - You are comparing a potential with one of the best power forwards of the decade. Can't really make that comparison.

    BBen/Monroe - The only thing that's comparable IMO. Very different types of players, but overall quality-wise similar. Still, BBen2004 was such a unique player and a game changer. I would still give the edge to BBen. I would actually be comparing Monroe to Sheed.

    Campbell/JJ - Campbell had size and could defend Shaq. JJ can defend gatorade coolers.

    Okur/CV - Yeah, that's a wash. Agreed.

    Corliss/Daye - This must be the humorous part of your post. You didn't really mean to compare the Big Nasty with the lanky adolescent with emotional issues, did you?

    James/Bynum - Agreed.

    Hunter/Gordon - If Gordon played like he did in Chicago, I would agree and give the edge to Gordon. But Hunter was a pesky on-the-ball defender that made key stops when the team needed them. Gordon is failing to make the key baskets when the team needs them. Hell, Gordon fails to make any baskets whether the team needs them or not.

    Sorry to pick apart your post like this. It's great that you're optimistic about the future, but the two squads are not even close. That 2004 bench can beat the 2012 starters in a playoff series.
     
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  12. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    That's a great point about how Chauncey and Rip fit together, whereas Knight and Rodney might really not. It would be great to again have a ball dominant point guard, and a shooting guard that can actually shoot really well...and doesn't need to have the ball in his hands for the offense to work. We used to have two shooting guards that didn't want the ball (Iverson and Rip). Now we have two point guards that do need the ball (Brandon and Rodney). It seems as though Ben Gordon might fit that bill perfectly - theoretically. But he just hasn't been that good with us. He hasn't shot the ball that well with us. And he's just so, so awful defensively that you can't really live with him out there too often.

    I don't know if it'd be possible...but maybe we should try and trade Rodney for a player that's more like Rip? Maybe we'd be able to trade Rodney and Ben for one (if it worked out cap-wise)? Maybe we'd be able to trade both of them for a high enough draft pick to select such a player? I'm on board with that. You made a great point that changed my outlook, lol.
     
  13. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    I didn't realize that Rip was so young back then. Definitely adds to the idea that we should think about moving him.
     
  14. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Put it this way, how many guys on the '04 team would you have replaced with our current guys?

    Would you really substitute Knight in for Billups and expect them to still win it all? Monroe for Wallace? I don't think I'd make a single substitution. Definitely not Stuckey for Rip.
     
  15. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    Tay/Tay - very good point about him generally not caring. That's why I don't like him as the leader of this team. I said earlier that we should think about moving him.

    Sheed/Sullinger - agree completely. But I do think that having a guy that could get us consistent points in the paint again would really smooth a lot of things over.

    Ben/Monroe - the biggest difference in their value, I think, is the leadership and attitude that Ben brought to the team.

    Elden/JJ - there are a lot of things JJ can do that elden couldn't too. Overall, I think JJ brings more to a team.

    Corliss/Daye - agreed, just saying Daye has potential. Maybe I should have compared Corliss to JJ, Elden to old Ben.

    I'd take Gordon over Lindsey Hunter any day of the week man. As bad as he's been. He's still better now than Lindsey was in '04, overall.
     
  16. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    Here are some general thoughts that have emerged for me through the development of this thread...

    #1) We should look into trading Rodney for someone that's a better off the ball player (i.e. a catch and shoot guy, like Rip). Even if he's not necessarily better all-around than Rodney, it'd be better for the team in general to have guys out there without clashing styles. It'd be nice if he was a younger guy too. Maybe we could just trade him for a draft pick with someone we like on the board being available?

    #2) We should look into trading Tayshaun for someone that's a better leader, someone with more intensity, more urgency, etc.

    #3) Once Ben W.'s contract is over, we should replace him with someone that is very outstanding defensively...which you can do with the MLE.

    ...Ben, Daye and Villanueva are all pieces I wouldn't mind giving up to get these guys.





    *****





    C: B. Wallace..........Monroe
    PF: R. Wallace..........*Sullinger*
    SF: Prince..........*???* (trade Prince)
    SG: Hamilton..........*???* (trade Stuckey)
    PG: Billups..........Knight

    C: Campbell..........*???*
    PF: Okur..........Daye
    SF: Williamson..........Jerebko
    SG: Hunter..........Russell
    PG: James..........Bynum

    *I'm assuming that BenG and/or Charlie is included in one of the deals...and that the remaining player is amnesty-claused-ed.

    ...that's getting a little closer to comparision.
     
  17. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

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    Your intentions were good when developing this thread.........thanks for the effort.
     
  18. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    Jeremy Lamb...Bradley Beal...and John Jenkins are all rumored to be "Rip-like" catch-and-shoot players.
     
  19. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    I don't think you can overestimate the shot blocker patrolling the front line. It allows you to play tighter. Ben Wallace was in a class by himself in his prime with athleticism to block shots but also with the Defesive IQ to rotate. Rasheed was as good a post defender as anyone in the league. We do not have that. Once a guy gets past his man its gonne end up a floater, a layup or a dunk. We have to hope that they overpenetrate and we can cover in time to get a block.
     
  20. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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