Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by blueadams, Feb 23, 2012.
That's exactly right. Wallace x 2 made Chauncey, Rip, and Tay seem like excellent defenders.
Tay was a good defender though. Lets not forget that. It was chauncey that couldn't defend, and maybe rip. But Tay played insanely good D when he had too.
Nice thread. Knight doesn't seem to be the type that needs to dominate the ball 100% of the time, no, but it's not what I'd call a seamless fit. They fit better defensively as RS can take on the bigger, stronger guards. On offense, Rodney plays better when he has the ball in his hands, and as the PG, so does Knight, really. Stuck's always been a ball-dominant guard, but before the last 2 games, he's done a good job of picking his spots for the most part. That's when he's most effective, not when he's the guy bringing the ball up the floor.
In theory, I agree BG would've been better suited to take on the Rip role in the offense, but too often he does an Austin Daye and tries to dribble into traffic/facilitate when all he needs to do is catch and shoot. His defense sucks, and obviously his offense has been of the here today, gone tomorrow variety as well. Not to mention the head scratching turnovers. A true shooting guard with some size would help this team a great deal imo. Now if only Joe can bamboozle someone under the cap to take BG's contract off our hands for a draft pick...*reality check* yeah, not happening. Would be nice, though.
Tayshaun doesn't really fit in anymore. With Tay, all three of Rodney, Greg and Brandon defer to him even when he's not necessarily playing well, sometimes to the detriment of the team. When he's hitting, fine, but when he's 2 for 15 and playing "point forward", running isotayshauns, he does more harm than good. Rodney can drive and kick/finish or draw fouls. Tay shoots flat-looking jumpers/hooks after holding the ball for 15 seconds. This team is evolving into one that wants to run, and Tay wants to slow it up and have one of the league's worst offenses go against a set defense. His defense was what won him playing time, but he's not that guy anymore, not consistently. Trading him is the best thing to do, I just don't think Joe wants to let his "asset" go, and Frank seems to keep playing him even when he's playing badly for some inexplicable reason.
They were all good at a certain part of defense, which is that they were longer (Rip and Tay) and bigger (CB) than their opponents. With Wallace x 2 behind them, they were able to use these advantages to their fullest and could cheat up on their man. They could go over screens without fear of penetration. Without those shot blockers behind them in later years, they couldn't use their natural advantages as much because they had to worry a lot more about having their man blow by them.
Maybe that simplifies it too much, but that's been how I've looked at it. Daye might have been considered a great defensive SF if he had the no fly zone behind him.
CB & Rip in '04 could also put some hands all over guys in ways that aren't allowed now. They exploited that rule as well or better than anyone else, but today is a lot different.
Tay has never been a great defender, that team was a GREAT defensive unit because Wallace X2 were simply amazingly good on the defensive end. Ben was an athletic freak of nature with strength, quickness, hops, anticipation skills and a great hoop IQ, Sheed was equally good but in a different manner, his skill level was just unreal. I remember when Paul Pierce called out Tay about his defense he said, "If I had the Wallace's behind me I'd be all NBA Defense too"
That 2004 team won in spite of not having an offensive super star, but Ben Wallace was a defensive superstar, the league has changed in a way that will never let a team like that win another NBA Title. All this team needs is a stud on the wing and a good solid PF to pair up with GM, we should get one of the 2 in the upcoming draft.
I could still imagine that '04 team winning in today's NBA. They did beat Kobe and Shaq at their superstar peaks. We were getting called for fouls when Shaq would elbow Big Ben in the face.
In 2006 when we were dominating the NBA, the refs gave the Heat 47 free throw attempts in one game against us (34 to Wade + Shaq).
It's just so much easier to get the kind of player that takes pride in defense to come here vs the Melo type guys. It's still our best strategy IMO.
If we are building through free agency, then you are absolutely correct. The Melo type guys have to be acquired via the draft or trades.
Agree that it has to be a combination. Get the best talent possible in the draft and try to get undervalued players with limited FA money. CB, Rip, Ben, and Sheed were all acquired assets after all.
The points about the Wallaces being so great are all very, very true. The problem is that Greg Monroe is a center-piece of our franchise right now. And he's not even close to Sheed defensively.
I still honestly believe that defense is the key to a strong team - take the Bill Russell v Chamberlain argument as proof. Barring the strong showing of OKC, the major teams in the NBA, notably the Heat and the Bulls, are both powerful defensive units. The Spurs also do well, as do the Mavs - even without Chandler.
Still not sold on the idea of shot blockers as the answer. Yes they can be intimidating, but more often than not they do not force a change in possession, unless deep into the shot clock. High defensive IQ still rocks my socks.
I also don't think that this team is as far off as some of us might think. They might stink at the moment, but in reality, a single piece may just get us right again - an efficient scorer with a knack for help defense is what I hope for the most. Another big would certainly not go astray, but a bit of chemistry behind Max and Munroe might be the answer we seek. Looking back to 04, it was a pairing of defensive and offensive efficiency respectively in the paint which pushed us so high.
On the topic of Munroe, he is the perfect centre piece for the Pistons franchise. He embodies everything that the city stands for in basketball. Heart and hard work. The same thing can be said of Knight. When BWallace steps down, Munroe is shoe in for him.
Part of defense is rebounding missed shots. Monroe is pretty good at that. He also stays on the floor by avoiding foul trouble (while contesting shots).
I think he's good enough defensively to be a part of a future Championship team. He's so advanced in other aspects and so well rounded that if he were a defensive ace, we would never have been able to draft him in the first place. The key is that he is outplaying his draft position and his rookie contract.
The thing about blocked shots is that a ferocious block can fire up a team as much as, if not more than, a powerful dunk. That's an added intangible benefit. And the intimidation factor is always there. During our glory days, I remember several guards going for a layup and missing because they were nervously eyeing where Big Ben was instead of focusing on the shot.
Anyhow, there are many different ways to bake a pie. You don't need the defensive intensity of Wallace x2 to be a contender again. We got some nice pieces in place. We just need to keep adding. In the case of Gordon and CV, it will be addition by subtraction, but that's still 2 years away.
I've been thinking a lot more about comparing the players on these two teams...I've been re-thinking some things...
C: B. Wallace..........*'12 1st rd. pick*
PF: R. Wallace..........G. Monroe
SF: T. Prince..........J. Jerebko
SG: R. Hamilton..........B. Gordon
PG: C. Billups..........B. Knight
C/PF: M. Okur..........C. Villanueva/A. Daye
PF/SF: C. Williamson..........T. Prince
SG/PG: M. James..........R. Stuckey
C/PF: E. Campbell..........B. Wallace
SG/PG: L. Hunter..........W. Bynum
B. Wallce vs. *'12 1st rd. pick*: If there's one major difference between that team and this team, it's the presence of a dominant shot blocking/rebounding center. That's something we need to find, badly. If we can get one that can contribute offensively as well, even better.
R. Wallace vs. G. Monroe: This is a reasonably apt comparision. Similar size. Similar athleticism. Sheed was much smarter defensively. Monroe can become much smarter defensively. Sheed was much more talented offensively. Monroe can get better offensively...as good as Sheed? Probably not. Maybe a problem? Something that at least needs to be made up for elsewhere.
T. Prince vs. J. Jerebko: This is a reasonably apt comparision as well. The "Glue Guy." Very different players, but very similar players at the same time. Both should be your 5th scorer. Both do the small things. Both play solid defense. Both have a decent offensive skill set. Both are decent shooters. Tay was a little more gifted. JJ is a little more gritty.
R. Hamilton vs. B. Gordon: Theoretically, this is a reasonably apt comparision as well. Both are, theoretically, great catch and shoot players that don't need the ball in their hands to be successful. Neither are great defenders. BenGo just hasn't been able to get it going offensively for us yet thus far, and he's not as good defensively (even though Rip was never great defensively).
C. Billups vs. B. Knight: This is a reasonably apt comparision. Both are ball dominant players. Both are tall points. Both are good outside shooters. Both can get points inside. Knight has a TON of developing to do...needs to get stronger, needs to get more consisten shooting the ball outside, needs to get better at running the offense, needs to get better defensively, needs to get better at driving and pulling up. But he could still make a lot of those strides.
M. Okur vs. C. Villanueva/A. Daye: More or less give you the same thing.
C. Williamson vs. T. Prince: Different players, but more or less give you as much.
M. James vs. R. Stuckey: Rodney actually probably gives you more in this case.
E. Campbell vs. B. Wallace: Different players, but more or less give you as much.
L. Hunter vs. W. Bynum: Different players, but more or less give you as much.
So, what does this all mean?:
#1) We need to bring in a dominant defensive big man...great defender, great shot-blocker, great rebounder, lots of grit...hopefully a lot of attitude too, a real leadership/tone-setter guy.
#2) If BenGo can't get it together, we probably need to replace him with more of a Rip-like player. BenGo himself, Charlie V, Daye, Tay, Stuckey, etc....are all possible trading chips.
#3) Knight, Monroe, Jerebko - and a lot of these guys - need to really bust their humps, get coached up, and make huge strides in development.
...not that far, not that close.
I think it will be hard to turn our garbage into an allstar player. Stuckey is the only one with trade value. I think we have to be careful of falling into the trap that most forums do....suggesting that our really bad players, with bad contracts can be parlayed into a deal where we end up with a solid player. Tay, Ben Gordon, are not only signed to bad contracts their skills are nosediving. Tay is down to 40% shooting.
I still think that Tay has some value. ...Not much, but some.
He'd be a good addition to a team like the Clippers or another team that could use a vet wing for the playoffs.
I'm not sure that any of the guys that we'd all be willing to trade have any value. It's come down to whether their tradeable or not tradeable. Joe has made a bed of bad contracts and he's laying in it. We are absolutely stuck with Gordon, CV and probably Stuckey. Those guys are all signed to deals that nobody else is going to want to pay.
I could imagine Monroe being inserted onto the 2004 team in place of Sheed and the team still winning the Championship. Also, I think the modern day Tay could replace the '04 Tay and not hurt the team that badly.
Also, I don't think it is out of the question that if we replaced '04 Darko with '12 Daye, they could have got it done.
Maybe I should have compared old tay to new tay.....and corliss to jerebko. Pretty close in both cases either way.
The biggest question is how do we find our Ben Wallace-type center. Anthony Davis certainly seems to fit that bill. Would any combination of Ben G, Charlie V, Daye, Stuckey, Tay, Jerebko, etc...be enough to get us a top 2 pick?
5 out of the 6 players (or their contracts) are negative assets.
Aside from Jerebko, none of these other guys even qualify as currency.
It's like saying: "I'll trade you 4 stale, partially eaten candybars for a fresh new one that's still in the wrapper."
If you tossed in an expiring carton of milk I'd consider it.
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