Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by blueadams, Jan 23, 2013.
The title of the thread is, "If I got Joe-D's job tomorrow...."
But...but...but...but...didn't Oklahoma and Cleveland do it that way? Just wait and hope for once-in-a-decade that THE special one arrived?
On the other hand, had the saloon been just around the corner, I should have got drunk.
John Barleycorn by London, Jack
I was just thinking about how completely upside down this team is:
Salaries this year:
1) Maggette: $10.9M. No PT at all going forward. This is just evidence of prior financial mismanagement (by Maggette's prior employer and Joe D), not any fault of Maggette.
2) Stuckey: $8.5M. Asked to go to the bench out of embarrassment. Recently DNP-CD'd by coach after a reported run-in. Almost completely irrelevant on a nightly basis.
3) Villanueva: $8.1M. On ice for a long, long while. Currently comes off the bench and stays in the game for a while if he hits a quick 3, otherwise might not appear again in the 2nd half.
4) Prince: $6.8M. (seems about right).
5) Rip Hamilton: $5.5M. Again, evidence of prior screw ups by Joe D.
6) Maxiell: $5.0M. (seems about right)
7) Jerebko: $4.5M. Has been in bench jail for most of the season after a dreadful shooting start. His dad is calling out the coach in Europe. Irrelevant on a nightly basis.
8) Bynum: $3.5M. Our 7th man of the year for us. Seems about right.
9) Monroe: $3.2M. Our best contributor this year from a production volume standpoint.
10) Knight: $2.8M. Our 3rd best player.
11) Daye: $3.0M. Recent contributor off the bench. Seems about right.
12) Drummond: $2.4M. Clearly the team's best player and most valuable if he were put on Ebay for all other teams to bid on.
13) Kravtsov: $1.5M. Seems about right for a deep reserve big man.
14) Singler: $1.0M. 3rd cheapest player on the team, but has become the nightly starting SG.
15) Middleton: $0.5M. seems right. Future prospect.
16) English: $0.5M. seems right. D-league stint + recent PT.
So, our starters and nightly bench are as follows in terms of pay ranking:
Start/ Bench/ Jail (or waived)
#14/ #2/ #1, #5, #16
#4/ #11/ #15
#6/ #3/ #7
#9/ #12/ #13
None of our top 3 highest paid players start for us. I have scanned the Eastern Conference and there is only one other team like that- Charlotte.
Team, # of top 3 highest paid players starting (.5 given for injured former starter, .5 given if guy has started about half of games)
NYK: 2.5 (.5 for Amare being injured)
PHI: 1.5 (.5 for Bynum being injured)
TOR: 2.5 (.5 for Calderon having some bench role)
CHI: 2.5 (.5 for Rose being injured)
CLE: 2 (Walton odd man out)
MIL: 1.5 (.5 for Illyasova getting mixed starts)
CHA: 0 (Ben Gordon, Tyrus Thomas, and Diop make up our sister roster)
ORL: 2.5 (.5 for Turkaglu injury)
WAS: 2 (.5 for Ariza mixed starts and .5 for Nene's injury)
As you can see, the most common reason for highly paid players not starting is injury. Only a complete botch job by a GM leaves a team with no starters in its top 3 highest paid players even though there are no injuries.
If we took it to the next level and asked how many teams in history have had only 2 of their top 8 highest paid players be starters, I'm wondering if the answer would be "1- the 2013 Detroit Pistons".
So, even though we are seeing some progress, let's not forget how bad things have been run to end up in our current predicament.
Going by salaries, here would be our starting lineup:
I think about this every time I look at the Trade Machine as they have player salaries right there next to the guy's name. I've never thought to compare this disfunction to the payrolls of other teams though. ...wow.
I firmly believe that it's actually worse than what you've illustrated though due to Prince and Maxiell's salaries. You have these two in the "seems about right" category and I would argue that there are VERY few GMs in the league that would pay these clowns what they are making.
When you factor in the big picture, the league is full of younger, better, less expensive replacements for Tay & Max. I just quickly glanced at a list of top PER SFs in the NBA as well as some per 36 stats and I saw at least 10 guys that make less than Tay and would do a better job (to be fair, I excluded rookie salary players).
I'm assuming that the PF pool isn't as deep but I could do the same for JMax.
...so not to be a total downer but the two "semi bright" spots on the Pistons roster in terms of salary are actualy pretty dim spots if you ask me.
Tay is past his prime.
Max never reached his.
I have to assume that Joe is currently on the phone to Reputation.com trying to get your post removed from the internets before T-Gores sees it.
I can get that post removed for $10k.
1. If you said, "Replace Frank with Popovich." then I would agree with you. Unfortunately, Popovich has repeatedly said that he retires with Timmy. Budenholzer is a complete unknown. As for having him, "steal as many assistant coaches as possible", I would respond by saying that stealing assistant coaches has never been a franchise changing move. Lawrence Frank however, is a proven, capable head coach.
2. There is zero benefit to amnestying Chuck V. until you have a definitive plan to use his cap space. He's also our third best big man.
3. Tanking is for losers, and there is NOBODY worthy of the number one pick in this year's draft. The team with the worst record rarely gets the #1 overall pick anyway.
4. If Joe traded a high character, 22 year old, borderline all-star big man for a top five DRAFT pick, then I would recommend that he be dragged out into the street and shot twice in the head.
5. I'm not sure if I would trade Knight for Burke quite yet. Let the season play itself out and get a good look at Burke's combine/workout, and tourney performances.
6. There is no way that I would blow up a young, talented team in order to re-boot with a bunch of unknown kids. I like all three of the players that you named, but if you played them together then you would probably have one of the three worst records in the league next year. I'm in no mood to sit through a 20 win season.
7. I would definitely be open to moving Stuckey and Prince. If we lose Bynum, and can't pick up another PG in the draft, then Stuckey would probably move into Bynum's current role. I would try and keep Daye and Bynum for the right price. Again, following your model, we'll be shooting for 20 wins. Bringing in a roster full of high character vets, who are on their way out of the league (thus willing to take one year deals), is not the way to field a competitive team.
8. & 9. I have zero interest in watching this team tank for two seasons. The team with the worst record rarely wins the draft lottery. That's why there is a draft lottery.
Is it really that simple? Obviously not.
It's funny how we can be so frustrated with what we see and the solution is to hit reset and be really bad for another 4 years while we wait (again) for young players to learn how to win. While everyone knows that I do not like Brandon Knight's game at all, there are even worse options at PG. This team as it is assembled right now can compete with and beat all of the middle of the pack and bottom teams, which is right about where we should be considering we haven't drafted a LBJ or KD type player.
I'm not frustrated with this team. This is the most entertaining team that we've had since Big Ben was a legit DPOY candidate. We have a franchise big man, a borderline all-star big, and some talented perimeter pieces in Singler, Knight, and Daye. We have some interesting vets in Maxiell, Bynum, and Chuck V. Even Stuckey brings something to the table. I'm excited to see more of English. That kid can shoot.
We need a wing who can shoot the three AND get to the line. We're losing tight games in the fourth quarter because we don't have that guy. This team is one year and one player away from being a 50 win squad. I'm excited about this team. They been fun to watch, at least for the last month.
There are 5-7 players in this draft who could help us win games next year. McLemore, Shabazz, Porter, Burke, Caldwell-Pope, and MCW come to mind. As long as we can keep our pick, we'll be a solid playoff team next year.
I think you can move English ahead of Rip Hamilton on the Pistons depth chart.
Those commas were not meant to indicate order. I agree that English has been more productive for us this year though. Way better locker room presence.
I say the same thing (although Knight and Monroe often frustrate me to no end), we're 1 player away. many teams get a star and have to build around that player, Joe has basically assembled a supporting cast that simply needs a lead star and VOILA!
This is it. If all you are getting back is a pick, you are an idiot unless the draft is totally loaded with Garnetts, Rasheeds and KLoves. As in saturated.
I sort of agree with you here, but also not really. Building around a star is different to adding a star.
And we can both agree that our supporting cast is probably not Championship material.
I am actually not sold on this guy at all (just yet! -before people start flaming). I don't see the CP3 comparisons, especially in terms of just flat out handles and lateral quickness. And more than that, if he truly is a ball dominant passer, I don't know how helpful that is anyway! We needs scorers for him to assist. Although I would love to see Drummond punish 10 lobs a game, thats not going to happen.
Of all the draftees, I would take Shabazz. But not because I think he is the next LBJ. At this point, he looks more like Rudy Gay. But he could be a legit 20/5/5 guy given his size and strength.[/quote][/quote]
You can't compare him to the CP3 that you see today, a 27 year old seasoned vet with 7 years of NBA experience. You have to compare him to 20 year old Chris Paul at Wake Forest they're almost identical.
Well DUH! But Shabazz won't be around when we pick and neither will McClemore
This team has been more entertaining than years past, but it still frustrates me. If the Pistons have 3 young guys to take a look at 2 of the 3 pairs (Monroe/Drummond and Knight/Drummond) have almost never played together.
That's winning the wrong way to me. Forget adding guys to the team.
To expand a little bit on the concept of the upside down roster, here is how our guys rank in terms of points per minute (expressed conveniently as per 36):
1) Bynum: 17.8
2) Monroe: 17.2
3) Villanueva: 17.0
4) Knight: 15.8
5) Stuckey: 14.5
6) Drummond: 13.2
7) Daye: 13.0
8) Prince: 13.0
9) Singler: 11.1
10) Maxiell: 10.6
Seems a little strange that with Knight (at point guard) and Monroe (one of the best passing bigs theoretically) that our other 3 starters have the most anemic scoring rates on the team. Wouldn't you expect Prince, Singler, and Maxiell to be the beneficiaries of great passes and tons of shot opportunities? What really happens is that Knight and Monroe pretty much play a 2 man game and the other 3 guys are garbage men. Tay and Singler only shoot when wide open or when all other options are exhausted and the shot clock is a factor. Maxiell gets the occasional jump shot and otherwise cleans up messes in the paint when he's able to jam it back.
Bynum's assist rate is 60% higher than Knight's (36.6 vs 22.9%) and his turnover rate is about 16% lower (15.5 vs 18.5).
I'm becoming a big fan of Knight's defensive effort and would be afraid to see Bynum try to defend certain starting PG's in the league. However, if he moved to the starting lineup with Drummond and had shot blocking protection behind him, then I wouldn't mind seeing a starting group of Bynum/ Knight/ Tay/ Monroe/ Drummond. That would move 4 out of our top 6 scorers to the starting unit and would leave Stuckey/ Singler/ Daye (or Villanueva)/ Maxiell (or Villanueva)/ Drummond (or Monroe) as our bench unit. In my imagination, I see a world where Drummond and Monroe cover for the bench center spot by platooning the minutes. The bench would be demolished if it didn't have a center in there. On the rare occasions where you need to rest both, then try out TRG for 5-10 mpg. With Singler on the bench squad, you could live without having both Daye and Villa in together as stretchers. Stuckey could play the Bynum role by driving against the other team's bench scrubs.
On building around a star vs. adding a star, I see your point. However, I do believe that we already have a star who can be unstoppable in the fourth -Drummond. While I would like to them add that LBJ/Durant kind of player, it's not realistic. A guy like Caldwell-Pope could be a Kevin Martin type guy for us (18-20 ppg), and help us get over the hump. This is a team that will be built around three or four pieces. We don't have Durant or LBJ, so it has to be.
On Burke, I'm not quite sold on him either, at least not as the next Chris Paul. He does NOT have Chris Paul's handle from Wake Forest. Wake Forest Chris Paul would also give you a couple WOW moments every game. I'm not seeing that from Burke. Still, I like Burke. I wouldn't mind seeing him run the point on the Pistons for 25 minutes a night. He is NOT a Joe D. type of guard though. So, chances are slim that we'd pick him, even if available.
Drummond could definitely be a star player within 2 years. He just needs a couple ugly post moves that work a little more often and some footwork training. Nothing drastic. The rest of his game is incredibly good. Don't bother ever even trying to develop a J... leave that to his PF partner.
I don't see Drummond as being a go-to star. I think he'll be a Tyson Chandler'esque, but a lot more dominant. I see him as 15 and 15 player, but not a guy that you can sump the ball into like Shaq or Olajuwon.
I don't see why not. There isn't really a reason why he couldn't be the next Shaq, except for pure weight.
He can dribble, has fast hands, incredible athleticism and loves the glass. He won't be a Chandler type player, he is too fast in transition for him. He is a combination of Dwight and Smoove
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