im done wih the pistons

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by doublead, Jan 10, 2008.

  1. Dumars4Ever

    Dumars4Ever Bench Warmer

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    That's true for the conference finals, but let's not forget the toughest series (as it turned out) that the Pistons had in the championship year: 2nd round against New Jersey. Both teams won one very close road game in that seven game series, with the other 5 all being blowouts by the home team, so HCA was awfully helpful in that instance for the Pistons.

    So while it's fair to say that HCA in the playoffs is less important for this club than the standard conventional wisdom would indicate, I don't think we should completely dismiss it out of hand as a good thing to have in a tough series.
  2. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    If you look at last year you will see that our record was better on the road than at home. That is not the case this year. We have been a significantly better team at home with one or two exceptions.

    There is no advantage to not having the home court advantage.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    The playoff roster is pretty well set right now barring a trade or injury.

    Sheed
    Dyess
    Prince
    Billups
    Hamilton
    Hunter
    Hayes
    Maxiell

    Those will be the main 8 guys.

    So it will be basically the same cast of characters as last year, except Hayes replaces Delfino and Maxiell replaces Webber. This is an upgrade.

    Stuckey - It all depends on how well he plays between now and May.

    Afflalo - May get a few minutes here and there, but not very much except in garbage time.

    Herrmann may get some serious burn in a few games if our bigs get into foul trouble. See my comment at the end of this post.

    Brezec will get a couple of minutes here and there.


    AJ - In street clothes.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dyess already appears to be wearing down, so we can expect to see a lot more small ball with Herrmann for the rest of the regular season.

    :hoops:
  3. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    A little OT, but speaking of the playoffs; Does anyone think we actually worked on the Chauncey trapping thing or are we going to see a replay?
    I wonder if it occurs to Flip to think about these things; maybe trapping Chauncey in practice and working on different strategies, etc.

    This is why Stuckey being developed is crucial to a successful run.

    I've seen Chauncey trapped a few times this year, and generally he seems to dribble, try to run away, dribble some more, pass to random player w/ shot clock low.

    Without this type of playoff preparation it doesn't matter if we play on Mars. We will be easily beatable.
  4. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    To break a trapping defense you need to keep the ball off of the court; i.e. pass rather than dribble. In most cases this relies quite heavily on having a big man who can set up in the middle of the court; i.e., half court and the top of the key. From there he needs to make accurate and quick decisions and pass the ball quickly and accurately. He must also have very good hands to catch the ball prior to passing it.

    That is one of the reasons we got C-Webb last year. But as we know he was a bust in the later rounds of the playoffs.

    Right now we have no big man with experience who can do what we need. Neither Sheed, Dyess, Maxey or Brezec are very good passers. AJ is a pretty good passer but is inexperienced and has trouble holding on to the ball; i.e., probably due to weak hands. Besides it appears at this point that AJ will be in street clothes come playoff time.

    It will be a big challenge for Flipper to figure out how we can beat the trap without a big man that can pass sufficiently well. When he coached the T-Wolves he had KG who fulfilled that function very nicely.
    :hoops:
  5. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    Sheed is a good passer, but i agree not good enough for that.

    I always thought you could beat the trap (sometimes) with quickness, ability to spit the double team, basically a penetrating guard which Chauncey is not. Maybe they could try playing Chauncey off the ball, and have Prince/Stuckey handle.

    It'll be interesting to see what happens when a team decides to do this consistently. I have a feeling no one will until the playoffs.
  6. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    I'll gladly take a win against Charlotte over bench minutes any day.

    Flip's How to be an NBA Player in 4 Minutes DVD should be out soon.

    The Charlotte announcers were laughing about the befuddled look on Flip's face last night.

    Phil Jackson, in his book about the '04 Lakers, based his strategy against MN in the WCF on the fact that Flip pushed too hard for the HCA and that they would be tired.

    Buddah, the HCA used to be important. Back in the day teams rarely won on the road. That isn't the case any longer IMO. (There are no playoff rosters either. It is the same as the season active and inactive, I believe.)
  7. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    You are correct, but C-Bill is not quick enough. Stuckey we will have to see how he develops.

    I am sure the Pistons brain trust is aware of the problem. Whether they can solve it remains to be seen.

    On another problem. Yesterday wasn't the first time we had trouble with the zone.

    The same solutions to the trap can work against the zone.

    The fact that we still have trouble with the zone, leads me to believe that we will still have trouble with the trap.

    :hoops:
  8. Dumars4Ever

    Dumars4Ever Bench Warmer

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    Time for another one of those "please, everyone, have a little perspective" posts.

    OK, so we know what happened last night: an ugly win in Charlotte over an 8-man team that paraded to the basket seemingly at will for much of the second half. That's not good, and it reminds us all too much of the flops of the last two conference finals series.

    Now, what else happened a few days ago: a big road win against the defending champions. Yes, the Pistons' offense looked bad in the third quarter, but it was outstanding in the first half (ball movement, hustle, PIP, everything we always want) and came back when we needed in the 4th quarter. And we care more about defense than anything else anyway, right? This is the Pistons, after all. The defense was great pretty much all throughout the game, with the Spurs getting a grand total of 80 points by the end.

    So what do we get today, and last night--"this is why they're going to lose in the ECF again," "this was a bad week," "Flip will never learn," etc. Once again, we see that:

    -- If the Pistons lay a beatdown on a bad team, well, who cares, they're supposed to do that to bad teams.

    -- If they eke out an ugly win against a bad team or (God forbid) actually lose to one of them (which hasn't happened in over a month; arguably two months, if you want to give Chicago and Houston a bit of credit and go back to the Sacramento game), then it's OMG WE'RE GOING TO LOSE IN THE ECF AGAIN SAME OLD FLIP NO PT FOR THE YOUNGSTERS IT NEVER CHANGES.

    -- If they lose to an elite team--e.g. Boston and Dallas this past week--well, that just proves they're going to get exposed by those same teams when it counts. That's obvious, isn't it?

    -- If they beat an elite team...well, how many chances do they get to do that? How many elite teams are there in this league? 5, maybe 6? I guess the one time everyone was kind of, maybe happy this year was after winning in Boston. Not much to complain about in that victory. But then they got another win over a truly elite team, a few days ago in San Antonio, and what do we get immediately after that win? This thread--entitled "im done with the pistons," in case anyone's forgotten.

    Anyone sensing a pattern here? Wins against bad teams are written off, losses to really good teams are incontrovertible proof that nothing has changed. Heck, even wins on the road against elite teams are reason enough for throwing in the towel. Which brings up a rather obvious question:

    IS THERE LITERALLY NOTHING THE PISTONS CAN DO DURING THE REGULAR SEASON TO GET PEOPLE TO SHOW A LITTLE PERSPECTIVE?

    Now, here come the disclaimers. Yes, I know, they've flopped in the ECF in the last two years. And yes, Flip is under the gun until he does better than that. We all expect more from this team than to fall short again when it counts. And I know that nothing they do in the regular season can totally dispel those criticisms--it can only be turned around with actual playoff results. I am most certainly NOT trying to minimize these cold hard facts, or trying to tell anyone to shut up and realize that we have it really good compared to most of the rest of the league, etc.

    OK, disclaimers over. What IS happening this season is that the starters are playing fewer minutes, three young players (JMax, Stuckey, and AA) are seeing real playing time, and three of the mediocre vets that most of us couldn't stand to see the Pistons depending so much on--Nazr, Lindsey, and Flip Jr.--are either on the inactive list or on another team. Should Amir get a bit of real PT to develop him and add some depth to the 3-man rotation up front? Yes, I think he should. Does AA deserve a few more minutes here and there? Yes, I think he probably does. But compare where the rotations are now to what everyone's expectations were at the beginning of the season. Or compare the rotations to where they were the last couple of seasons. Is there NO difference that anyone can see? Really? NONE?

    But maybe none of that matters, and the Pistons will still lose in the ECF. To whom? Well, to Boston, of course. So let's see how the past week went for the Celtics, after they won at the Palace last weekend: first, they lost at home--to the Bobcats. Then they got an ugly win in New Jersey thanks to a collapsing Nets team, and they followed it up by losing last night in Washington. All of their Big Three were healthy last night, and they lost...in Washington...scoring 78 points total...in the same gym where the Pistons put up 84 points in the first three quarters just the week before last. Perhaps the Celtics can point to not having had Rondo last night, but let's think about that: a team with this vaunted Big Three is relying on a second year point guard with exactly zero games of playoff experience to save them from scoring under 80 points? Against the Wizards? Does this sound like a team with no issues that's clearly set up to beat the Pistons in the playoffs? Not to me it doesn't. But would it make sense for them to freak out about it and run around yelling about how the sky is falling? I wouldn't say that either.

    So yes, I know, it's all about the playoffs. Nothing can be written in stone until then, and I'm not trying to convince anyone otherwise. But I'd also like people to take a deep breath and consider whether a mid-January game against the Bobcats is truly representative of what's going to happen in May and June. I'd like those same people to step back and consider the validity of treating said Bobcats game as "proof" of what's going to happen in the ECF just two days after completely writing off a dominant defensive effort in San Antonio as showing nothing whatsoever about how the Pistons will perform in May and June.
  9. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    Wow, that's one long post. You clearly did a lot of work on this, D4. And while you have a lot of good and valid points, there are a few things that I'd like to point out:
    - Starters minutes are reduced mainly due to them being on the bench in the blowouts, in the tight games, well we saw yesterday
    - The third quarter as of late has been an Achilles heel for this team. This means only one thing - other teams adjust, but Pistons don't
    - The losses have the smell of last year's collapse against Cavs - still can't score consistently against zone, complacency sets in, trapping Chauncey takes Pistons out of their offense completely

    Until we see some improvements in these areas it will be tough to consider this team as a championship contender.
  10. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I agree wholeheartedly D4. These people who can't consider the Pistons contenders, should post who is a contender, and then rationalize why they are better than the Pistons.

    Last night, we got shafted by the refs, and ran into a team that just beat Boston in Boston.

    And we still gutted out a win.

    The irony of Nazr Mohammed playing so well, when many of the same people complaining about the Pistons were complaining about Nazr is not lost on me.

    Some people will never be satisfied.
  11. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Very simple. This team could show that it has addressed it's weaknesses. It doesn't do that. It continues every year to have the same weaknesses and continues to explain that those weakness are never the reason they lose, yet, every year they lose because of those weaknesses and they are routinely NOT addressed.

    1. Getting killed on the boards
    2. Getting stops in the paint
    3. Getting points in the paint
    4. Choosing to do something other than shoot jumpers all game long
    Those are the things they could address to allow me to show some perspective. They haven't done it. They aren't doing it. Furthermore, it doesn't look like they will be doing it in the future. Teams that give us hell run layup drills on us. Games like when we give up 50 rebounds at home are not a good sign. Getting hammered 56-26 PIP by the Bobcats sans both point guards is not acceptable to me. The jumpers WILL stop falling in the playoffs.....plan B?

    That's all it would take. But, alas, it is not seen from this team. That's all I ask.

    Enjoy.
  12. Dumars4Ever

    Dumars4Ever Bench Warmer

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    NBA.com: Pistons at Spurs Game Info

    PIP: Pistons 40, Spurs 36
    Rebounds: Pistons 38, Spurs 37

    You're pointing to the Bobcats game as evidence for your assertions about those issues not being addressed. But what are your thoughts on how the Pistons did in those categories two nights earlier?
  13. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    I look at that game as proof they should have more of a focus in that area and not be humiliated by lesser teams in those categories. When they dominate in those categories, they have a much easier time winning games and by larger margins.

    The difference in PIP against CHA was clearly enough to suggest the difference between a blowout win against a bad team or eeking out a victory in OT against a team that has no business playing with you, especially being shorthanded. The difference in rebounding would have clearly been enough to keep Glenn Davis of the Celtics from looking like an All-Star. They lost to DAL by 16, and lost PIP by 12. That's clearly enough to put DET back in that game and give them a chance to win it. This team needs high percentage shots. It means they score more often and they score easier because the shots are closer. It also keeps Saunders from claiming that they just have to hit shots. When you are shooting shots that avg 50% success instead of 35% success, that problem takes care of itself.

    It's great when they win games in the regular season. But, the fact is, the games against BOS and CHA are the games that happen in the post season when this team gets embarrassed. That is of much higher importance to me.
  14. ggazoo69

    ggazoo69 Starter Forum Donor

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    Seems like points in the paints would get them to the free throw line more often, too. Ft attempts are down from the LB era in comparison with Flip's vomit offense.
  15. Dumars4Ever

    Dumars4Ever Bench Warmer

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    Yes, they did poorly on the boards and in the paint in losing to Boston and Dallas, but they did well on both in beating SA, and they did well in one of those two categories in the first Boston game (I just checked the stats for that game--32-18 Boston on PIP, but only 37-34 Boston on the boards). And that still turned out to be good enough for a win on Boston's home floor.

    As for the Charlotte game, how often have they been humiliated by lesser teams in those categories so far this season? Not very often, I don't think. The game last night seems like more of an exception to me than the rule, as far as this season goes, vis-a-vis giving up tons of PIP and other easy points to lesser opponents. Most of the Pistons' games against lesser opponents this year have resulted in blowout wins.

    So in the biggest games so far this season against championship caliber opponents, their performance in your benchmark categories seems to me to be...not too bad (two duds, one great showing, one split decision, 2-2 record, with 3 of those 4 on the road). Same thing for their performance in almost all of their games so far against mediocre to poor teams.

    Does this all add up to them having shown you nothing so far this season to indicate improvement in the crucial areas? I still think you're arguing that when they do well, your reaction is, "see, why don't they do that every single time out," and when they don't do it, your reaction is, "see, I told you so, that's exactly why they're going to fall short in the playoffs." Certainly I'm not arguing that there's no room for improvement in those categories...obviously, there is. But I don't think it's a very fair standard to hold up the losses as counting far more than the wins do.
  16. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    I was going to start a Nazmo fan club until he got traded.

    OMG! Charlotte had our number last year. Talk about embarassment by a lesser team. I am feeling GOOD! about this team. can we improve? Hells yes! but you know in anything, improvement comes in little steps, not one giant consistent performance jump.
  17. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    I doubt I would look at it that way if the same things that got DET eliminated the past two year didn't seem to keep popping up in the games they lose (sometimes to lesser teams).

    No, they're not going to go 82-0, but in my opinion there are very clear markers for categories this team struggles in and the correlation between those categories and the distinct factors that result in their early departures from the playoffs.

    If their struggles were along the lines that they were last in the league in 3 pt shooting, I doubt I'd be quite as annoyed because that's less likely to be a reason a team would be sent home by a team they should have a relatively easy time beating in the post season (CLE).

    It's pretty easy to compare. We have two championship eras and 3 titles to use as a blueprint, yet this current bunch seems to insist that none of those examples are important to their success. The fact is, the team that keeps getting the job done (SA) has cornered the principles for success and refuses to deviate from them. This team by contrast has successfully executed those principles once, but has since suggested to its fan base that it now needs to do something perpendicular to that success in order to revisit it. How is that logical?
  18. max

    max All-Star

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    Pistons do out rebound their opponents by about 1 per game and around + 0.5 offensive. So obviously they are not getting "Killed" every night on the glass.

    Pistons do have a deficit of -1.9 on Paint points but that does put us ahead of Boston which also runs a deficit of -2.7. The Knicks are 2nd in the league in Paint point differential with +7.0 so I guess they should be the team to beat right?

    NBA Points in the Paint 2006-07 Season -- from 82games.com

    Most of it depends on Rasheed Wallace. How he could go from Mr. Inside in the San Antonio game to being content floating around in the perimiter during last nights game is a mystery to me. Its not something that started with Flip as Sheed has always been like that.
  19. Dumars4Ever

    Dumars4Ever Bench Warmer

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    Still not sure I'm quite grasping what your standards are. So you would only be happy if none of the games that they do lose happen in the manner that has given them trouble in the last two ECFs--specifically, PIP and rebounding? That still sounds to me like you're discounting wins in which they do those things well, e.g. the San Antonio game, or at least well enough to win, like the first Boston game.

    On the flip side of your claim that you wouldn't be mad about being last in the league on 3-pt %, I could see where you were going if they had (let's say) won in San Antonio just because they happened to go 15-20 on 3s, in spite of being decisively outboarded and outscored in the paint. I would agree that in that case, it'd be fair to say "you can't count on all those 3s falling in the playoffs to make up for getting killed in the paint and on the boards," as an argument for why that would be a "fool's gold" win that shouldn't count for as much it seems at first glance, because you can't count on replicating it in the playoffs.*

    But why don't they get as much credit from you for outboarding and out-PIPing the Spurs on their own home floor? Isn't that at least as good a sign as getting stomped in those categories by Boston in the Palace was a bad sign? Why does a huge PIP deficit in a near-loss to Charlotte on the 3rd game in 4 nights on the road (a condition that also, um, isn't going to be repeated in the playoffs, not even close) seem to outweigh all those other wins against bad teams that didn't feature huge PIP deficits?

    *I would argue that the first Boston win--being down double digits in PIP but hanging in there on the boards--is in fact not that type of "fool's gold" win. The Pistons are a good enough jump-shooting team to win games in which they get out-PIP-ed, even by a lot, as long as they don't get dominated on the boards. I can post the stats from Games 1 and 7 in Miami in the '05 ECF to demonstrate that they followed precisely that pattern.
  20. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    The point is, that stat page proves my point. When the pistons (last year as referenced on that page) have any deficit in PIP, they hover around the .500 mark. However, that same team when it has an edge in PIP is largely better than it opponents which explains what I've been saying. Regardless of how the rest of the league fares RE: PIP. This DET team does extremely well in terms of overall success and win/loss record. PIP may not be the determining factor for all teams across the league, but it has proven to be highly fundamental to the success of THIS team. Just as it shows to be somewhat important for MIA and HUGELY important for Utah. The same cannot be said for all teams, but if there are certain areas which may guarantee a certain level of success, they must be treated with importance.

    [​IMG]

    The difference is in approach which HAS changed with Flip's arrival. The previous regime would force plays into the paint and regardless of Sheed's tendency would result in fewer avg 3pt attempts and more shot attempts in the lane which has proven to be much more successful in the playoffs. Finishing is a different issue, however, I'd rather have 10 shots inside of 12 ft than 10 shots outside of 12 ft.

    Again, it may not be the determining factor for ALL teams, but is a major factor for THIS team and is crucial to its success.

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