im done wih the pistons

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by doublead, Jan 10, 2008.

  1. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    I wasn't being snippy at all. That was simply a general statement based on what I've gotten in response from many posters during the course of the discussion (over numerous threads). I guess it sounds that way if it was a directly at you personally. That wasn't my intention. Please excuse my lack of proper expression.



    What this statement does is highlight the difference in approach from a coaching standpoint. It doesn't go very far to determine exactly what the teams does in ever game over a 2 year period, IMO. Personally I think that DET was much better than MIA in the 05 ECF and shouldn't have needed 7 games. I didn't think they focused on in the paint play enough during that series which is why I thought they struggled and barely got out of that series.
     
  2. Dumars4Ever

    Dumars4Ever Bench Warmer

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    A difference in the coaching approach? So do you think LB himself had a different approach in '05 then he did in '04, at least as reflected by what happened in the '05 ECF? I thought you were (indirectly, at least) denying that by saying that the whole problem of the last two years was Flip going away from what (so the argument would go) had been a consistently different approach under LB.

    If you're admitting that differences were starting to appear even under LB in '05, then I'll admit that we might have a lot less to argue about than I had assumed (ah, you edited while I was posting...I see that this is indeed the case).
     
  3. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    Were they fouled on the putback? That negates the PIP but gives credit for the rebound. Still get the points from the free throw line.
     
  4. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    I do think this is the case. However, I think the differences were due in part to the players (largely Chauncey and Rip) complaining that they know what to do and LB should lay off. I think they failed to realize that they needed to be pushed and that's why they were so pleased to have Dolphin come on board and is precisely why Ben Wallace was so annoyed when LB left and Flip arrived.

    The problem is, that while they were not as focused on inside play, the difference between LB and Flip is that LB kept pushing the issue, Flip doesn't really seem to think it's important.

    So, maybe those guys were tired of LB pushing them, but the alternative has been Flip and all of his "taking the reigns off."
     
  5. Dumars4Ever

    Dumars4Ever Bench Warmer

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    Are you talking about those '05 ECF games? I'm not sure, but the Pistons' rebounding edge in both games does suggest that they were getting at least some points in that way. It's related to why I said up-thread that being behind on PIP, even by a lot, doesn't necessarily lead to losing, at least not if you're still taking care of the boards (though giving up lots of PIP obviously make things harder than if you don't).
     
  6. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    I DO think they were getting some points that way. I still feel, overall, that they got a little jump shot happy for that series and they struggled. They were able to win some games where they lost PIP by large margins, by shooting very well from the outside. The only thing that stands out about this team is that they are rarely extremely hot from the outside for long stretches during the playoffs.

    So, no, being behind doesn't guarantee a loss, but we've seen over the past 4 years that this team is not likely to remain hot from the outside late in the post season. That's why I think it's crucial. If they win PIP by a large margin and shoot well from the outside, they win in a blowout most times. IF they win PIP by a decent margin and shoot avg or poorly from the outside, they win most and lose a few, IMO. If they get few PIP and shoot poorly, they struggle mightily. And over the last two playoff runs, they haven't gotten far over 30 PIP and once they are relegated to hovering around 30 PIP (as opposed to 40-50) and start shooting poorly, they get sent home.
     
  7. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    Yes. When you look at the rebounding edge but the deficit in PIP; it does become possible that we were forced to shoot free throws instead of lay ups. When you consider Ben was on the roster; they fouled him alot rather then give up the basket underneath.

    IMO; if you look at these stats and see a deficit in both; you could be led to assume that we are roaming the perimeter instead of looking tp the interior. That is when we have trouble. Watching the last few games I have noticed that our offense is slow. Everything we do seems to be in slow motion. No quick cuts or dives to the paint. Everything is a methodical back down or iso on the wing with a jumpshot to follow.

    We give the defense way too much time to set up against us. They pack it in and make it tough on us. We do not have a dominant low post scorer. We need to get our points in the paint on quick cuts and transition buckets. We just don't take advantage or facilitate the opportunities.
     
  8. Dumars4Ever

    Dumars4Ever Bench Warmer

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    I guess you can try to make that case about them tuning out on LB...but what about the earlier playoff series wins in '04, before the finals? Maybe we should take a closer look at those numbers when we get a chance (the Indy and NJ series).

    I doubt anyone would dispute that the '04 Finals were a perfect harmony between coaching and players--it was clear that they were all on exactly the same page, with the players outplaying the Lakers, and LB outcoaching Phil. If they could bottle that, they'd win the title every year with almost no difficulties.

    Perhaps our dispute comes down to this, then: while I agree that getting inside on offense is the right thing to push for, generally speaking, I'm not sure it's realistic to expect it to come together as perfectly as it did in the '04 Finals. Had some other things not come together pretty well in the previous two rounds, they probably wouldn't even have been there in the first place. No one would be happier than me if they really did duplicate their level of play in that series again, but I'm not sure they're necessarily destined to fail if they don't.
     
  9. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Let me take a crack at settling the question about our style of play and how it has changed since LB and the ship.

    In the '03-'04 playoffs, here is what we were doing vs. our opponents:

    Outside shots- 63% (38%)/ 62% of FGA (37% shooting)
    In the paint- 28% (49%)/ 31% (44%)
    Dunks- 6% (88%)/ 6% (91%)
    Tips- 2% (27%)/ 2% (45%)

    So, we were basically matching our opponents inside the paint. We shot a bad percentage on jumpers, but so did the other teams. I guess with the old rules, it was tougher to get open looks.

    On the boards, we were winning the battle. We got 3% more offensive rebs and 4% more defensive rebs than the other team. And as you guys pointed out, the fouls were also good for us. We shot about 3 FT's more per game.

    Now, here is how it looks.

    Jump shots- 72% (46%)/ 63% (42%)
    In the paint- 21% (56%)/ 31% (52%)
    Dunks- 5% (87%)/ 4% (89%)
    Tips- 2% (39%)/ 2 (50%)

    So, we have become more of a jump shooting team and we are having a lot of success from there. But the point of this analysis is because we know that jump shots dry up against good defensive teams in a playoff environment. Since we are shooting 56% from in the paint (not on dunks and tip ins), it would seem that we should go there more. Also keep in mind that a lot of our "in the paint" guys do shoot from just outside the paint a lot, like sheed on his post moves and Maxiell from the baseline. So it may not be as bad as it looks.

    The real change from LB, comes from our rebounding and our FT differential. We still out rebound our opponents on a % of rebs available basis by 1% on off and 1% on def, but our previous advantage has gone down a bit (not bad though after losing Ben). We now give up about 0.5 more FT's per game than we get. Not terrible, but not like the huge advantage we used to enjoy.

    So, the conclusion is that we are taking more J's and shooting a higher percentage all around. Our opponents have the same mix as they used to have, but they are shooting better too. To prepare for playoff ball, we should keep going into the post until that in-the-paint shooting percentage drops below 50%.
     
  10. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Much of that is definitely up for debate, but the one thing I think is agreeable is that for the better part of 2 seasons the general approach that this team took got them to two NBA Finals.

    My biggest gripe is that in 12 years of NBA coaching there is nothing I've seen from Saunders that leads me to believe that his approach will be successful. Hence, my displeasure with his hiring. Despite his annual allotment of 'let's see what he does this year,' I still haven't seen anything from Saunders that leads me to believe that he is a championship level coach.

    At the end of the day. I'm not banking on the notion that everything will fall into place for this team if they just hire LB again. However, there is something to be said for the fact that during those LB seasons, there was no closer team to DET than SA in terms of success and approach. However, that's where the similarities end. They found their path to success and married it. DET found it's path to success and promptly left it behind for a more 'fun to watch' approach in an effort to be more like teams that weren't winning it all (DAL, PHX, etc.).

    IMO, THAT is the most important factor. Sticking to a method (not a coach) that has proven to be successful instead of turning away from it prematurely to chase potential success.
     
  11. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Let's think about the personel here. Ben is gone. That should HELP our points in the paint. Sheed and Dyess need to get in the habit of playing more physical bball on offense. It will increase their odds of injury probably, but if they keep doing what they are doing right now, they won't be able to turn it on when it counts. Their shots will get taken away and they will get frustrated in the playoffs.

    Maxiell is doing all he can, but last night was a good example of how his undersized body can hurt him if he gets a tough match up.

    So then, what do we have? Amir and Bresec. Amir will help if he gets PT. Bresec looks like he is not the answer.

    I know this isn't a popular suggestion on here, but think about Webber again. Last year, 53% of his shots came from inside the paint. AND he shot .624 from inside the paint. AND he can pass the ball. The more I see our 2nd unit struggle recently, the more I think that Webber would be a great bench player.
     
  12. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    Would you rather have Webber or see Amir getting some meaningful minutes?
     
  13. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Just one minor note...keep in mind he also helped keep our opponents PIP from skyrocketing in many instances as well. I believe he's a factor on both sides of PIP good or bad.
     
  14. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Webber or not, Amir isn't getting any run.
     
  15. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    That I do know. However, do we really want Webber on this team?
     
  16. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I think they are different players. I mean Chauncey was complaining that he was losing assists to Webber. I don't think that he would make the same complaint about Amir.

    Anyways, that passing ability and his veteran presence is what intrigues me about getting him to mesh with our bench unit. I love seeing the young guys play, but Stuck/Afflalo/JMax/Amir is a lot of youth in there at once. They could use an anchor like Webber.

    In fact, I think that Amir would be a great compliment for CWebb, because their energy level would average out. Webb can hold his ground and Amir can provide help out shot blocking.

    Also, Webber was looking a little over the hill last year toward the end. But that was playoff bball against starters. If he is only asked to play against 2nd stringers, I think he'd be very effective.


    It's not essential that we get him, but I'm reconsidering whether or not it might be helpful.
     
  17. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Except, our opponents were scoring 41.36 per 100 in the paint on us when we had Ben, and they are down to 40 when we don't have Ben. There are so many variables that I'm not trying to discount his D, which was amazing, but it could have been a result of giving up more fast break points due to worse offensive FG%.

    But my main point was just that we used to use Ben's lack of post game as an excuse for why we didn't get more points in the paint, and that excuse is gone. We now have two excellent post options in Sheed and Dyess, yet our paint scoring is down.
     
  18. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    It's just possible that CWebb may not be the type to stay in tip top shape if he hasn't been playing. It could have him months just to get into some kind of shape to play. And he would have to accept a limited role off the bench.

    But, he would take some pressure off Stuckey, and I bet Affalo would learn to make some hard basket cuts pretty quickly.
     
  19. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    I guess we'll also have to wait and see if Joe makes any moves. Pistons now have Hermann, Brezec, and Flip Jr. who could be moved either to clear up space to bring Web or to get a veteran big man.
     
  20. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    An out of shape Webber would really be a sorry sight, I will admit that. He'd get 3 in the paint calls just trying to sprint across.
     

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