Impressed with Flip - Managing Minutes

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by roscoe36, Apr 13, 2006.

  1. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    We complain when we see a problem, but don't always give credit where it is due. Earlier in the year, the anxiety was that there would not be enough left in the tank to finish strong. That fell by the wayside. The Pistons are playing with a lot of heart and determination.

    As HCA is slowly locked up (which I have never really cared about), Flip is starting to play the full bench and starter minutes are slowly decreasing.

    Here are the overall season minute stats.

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    And here are the last 4 games minutes from boxscores.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  2. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    I'd say he finally has a bench he can trust to win now. This aint practice or experience training. It's 20 point wins. And a strangle hold on the league.
  3. 16 Mile

    16 Mile Bench Warmer

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    It's all because of Delk. Flip is finally comfortable with a 7th man, so between him and Dice, Flip can cut down the minutes. Also with Hunter playing better, Flip can cut down CB's minutes. The only problem is with Tay.

    Flip (for whatever reason) does not want to use Delfino. That leaves Evans as our backup 3. Not good. Because Evans can not cover most 3's, especially once the playoffs start, Flip will want to use him sparingly. Meaning Tay will probably play 40+ minutes in the playoffs. Tay does not have the best endurance on the team, and this worries me a little, hopefully Flip will realize playing Delfino a few minutes at the 3 won't kill the team, and keep Tay down to 37 or 38 mpg in the playoffs. Or at least move Rip to the 3, and bring in Delk and Hunter.
  4. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    Let's see if Hunter continues to score.
  5. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    The bench is right there. Yes, getting Delk really helped but Joe saw that Delk brings more to the table than Arroyo. Delk brings instant offense, something that we need and he is a better defender than Arroyo. Arroyo handled the ball better but was unreliable and prone to bad judgement.

    Everyone would have been complaining had Flip used the bench more and LOST games. The current whiners about bench minutes would be complaining the most. That's human nature.

    People forget that we haven't really locked down much this year. We have been offensively oriented and so have not spent as much energy. Defense is way harder to play the offense.
  6. Buckeyes#1

    Buckeyes#1 First Round Draft Pick

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    Delk wasn't even available at the time Dumars chose to trade Arroyo. This speaks volumes of Dumar's opinion of Arroyo and how little he actually valued him.
  7. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    Hopefully Lindsey can have another fountain-of-life offensive game or two in the playoffs. :fingerscr That's probably too much to ask for, but you never know when his shot will be true for a night. Save it for the Finals, Lenz...

    Delk and Dice is a solid scoring bench, and both are slightly above-average defenders as well. Add Lindsey to that and it's dependable. I wish Delfino had been played more and I definitely wish that Flip would play DD 10-15 minutes every night, but the bench has been giving a - positive - change of pace since the Delk acquisition.
  8. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    Eyes#1, I don't know about that. What was Delks status before the trade? He didn't fall out of the sky. Earlier, I went so far as to say JD tampered.
  9. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    Maybe Joe D. can find a way to sign Adam Morrison as a backup for Tay for the playoffs, without Stern and his goon squad knowing that it is Morrison. Nah, but certainly an intriguing idea. After all Morrison deserves better to have ended his season this year crying on the floor in Oakland of all places. :):laugh:
  10. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    Sign Reggie Miller and Charles Barkley!
  11. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    arroyo was not unreliable. he has a great assist to turnover ratio. flips system just didn't fit him well. delk is a much better fit for the pistons i will say that. i think arroyo and dice right now would be lighting the league up. delk is instant offense for himself arroyo was an instant chemistry for him and dice. he would also have been great for mo evans who cannot create his own shot but can knock down shots.
    we complain because playing the bench doesn't automatically mean you lose games. it cost us 2 players so far. delfino will probably be gone next year. playing the bench isn't all about wins right now it's about experience for the future too.

    flip didn't play the bench even when he was up 25 in the 4th quarter plenty of times. he has improved his management of the bench. i
  12. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    Arroyo was unreliable, and his defense was awful. He's a decent player - not anywhere near as good as he thinks he is, but decent - but he did not reliably contribute to the team. He's slightly better in Orlando only because he's getting minutes and touches that he would never have gotten in Detroit - and keep in mind that he's not even playing that well in Orlando; he's just jacking up a ton of shots.

    It is definitely true that the bench doesn't automatically mean you lose games. The starters are not infallible, and sometimes the Pistons are a better team with them on the bench. The starter-substitute double standard will hurt the Pistons in the long run, and possibly the short one as well. But with players as raw as Darko Milicic, more often than not they will lose leads when in the game. The advent of the D-League is a positive step. But I agree with your second point in principle. An archconservative coaching style that doesn't give the unestablished bench players (not raw ones that need to be developed, though) chances probably won't win that many more games than a meritocratic approach.
  13. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    Buckeye, I think that Joe knew he could get Delk. When he traded Arroyo, I posted on the other board that the Pistons would bring in a back up. I can't prove it but a lot of these moves are in the works behind the scenes. But I agree, he wasn't sold on Arroyo. Good read.

    Bball, if the last few weeks of Delk are for real, he brings a lot more to the table for this team than Arroyo. We have needed points off of the bench for a long time. Even Corliss wasn't the answer and Dice by himself not enough. Arroyo is at his best when he shoots as much as he passes but his offensive game is on and off. I would rather have Delk at this point. I' ll take delk's points and defense over Arroyo's passing for this team. The pressure of Dyss and Delk off of the bench has been felt by our opposition.

    It is easy to say play the bench more minutes. We have had TWO coaches now who haven't. Two outstanding coaches. There must be something to that. Of course, we would lose some games in developing the bench. How many? Who knows? But if it were only to lose 3 we would have lost the home court to SA or Dallas. When you have the best team in the league whose only real goal is a championship, it is not easy to have a developmental approach at the same time. Also, we have to play the starters so many minutes as fans pay their money to see them play and not Maxiel. There is an unwritten rule about that in the NBA. It is a business after all.
  14. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    Well, playing the bench is not necessarily a developmental thing. Obviously it would be the Darko Milicics and Amir Johnsons, but I suspect that even the older rookies (i.e, Tayshaun Prince, Carlos Delfino, Jason Maxiell, Alex Acker) are fairly well-polished. And players like Dale Davis have holes polished in them by this point.

    There is obviously pressure and great temptation to play the Billups-Hamilton-Prince-Wallacex2 unit, just because it always has a relative advantage on paper over any unit any opponents can throw at you. That's an almost irresistable temptation for a coach like Flip, who knows that he doesn't have much credibility in Detroit, and if he doesn't win games and get every possible advantage to win playoff games and championships, Joe Dumars wouldn't hesitate to fire him. For LB - he was a lot more willing to play the bench than he's given credit for, although he's notoriously tough on rookies. I thought he should have played Ron Dupree more last year, but there was (especially with 15 MPG Delfino injured) a lack of talent on that squad that's been improved this season, and many more limits to what they could provide. In the end, that temptation must be resisted. Gregg Popovich and Phil Jackson are the best coaches in the NBA because they completely run the show, and are willing to take some risks. It's very arguable that Larry Brown is not an outstanding coach, and I've never heard Flip Saunders called one.

    But in any case, if the only real goal is a championship, then your team has greater opportunities to experiment in the regular season, not fewer.

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