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Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Ozarkruffrider, Jul 7, 2009.
How about getting something out of the mistake of drafting Darko - getting Stuckey in return?
#1) Dyess is legit. I will completely agree. That was a great and somewhat daring move that was based on character and due diligence. #2) I also did not give Ben Wallace $50 Million. Does that mean that I made a good decision? I'm talking about the notes that Dumars played, not the ones that he didn't play. Also, no respect for the man. He lets Saunders disrespect him and then belittle his lack of offense afterward? He lets Stuckey take the #3 jersey??? Ben had a meeting with the other players on the team and "told y'all how they are." #3) If this is one of Dumars' top 3 moves in the last half decade, then that is pretty sad. Consider that he had to fire this guy before his contract was up. #4 and #5 are funny, but this is a non-joking thread, so violation.
I will agree with that. Milicic + Arroyo in exchange for Kelvin Cato and the 15th pick in the draft was a top 5 Dumars moment (in last 5 years). It really wasn't for sure a good decision until he validated it by drafting well and picking Stuckey. No player drafted behind him that year is clearly better than he is. So, #1- Signing McDyess #2- Turning a failed #2 pick into an above average #15 pick.
It's hard to take someone who says they are a true fan seriously, when 90% of what they write reads like someone who doesn't like the team at all.
How about having his team go to 6 straight conference finals? Is that not an achievement?
I would argue that was a remnant from his pre 2004 actions for the most part. Once the core was established, they could sleepwalk their way into the ECF. Dyess helped, but I don't want to double reward Joe for the same move. On Joe's resume, he should definitely list that achievement though, because it is very impressive.
By your rationale, saving money isn't a good decision, because it is a decision not to spend. To answer the thread title, when the team wins, the fans will be pleased. The mob is fickle.
I say Joe found himself in the same predicament that Red Wings are in right now. They have "core" signed - Dat, Zetts, and Mule. They won the cup last year and went to game 7 this year. However, they are losing players due to salary cap. Think Okur, Corliss, etc. It is a little different with hockey because you have more players on your team, but I think the parallels are obvious. Wings maintained status quo because they are up against the cap. Joe was in the similar universe with low draft picks and getting close to the cap. In another thread you listed the salaries that Pistons' core players were getting at that time. That's how you can go 12 deep. Once they started getting paid, the depth disappeared. That's exactly the route the Wings are going. Trying to do best under the circumstances is all that's left to the manager. And obviously not all of the moves are going to be correct ones, but it is always nice to have the hindsight to see everything developing.
The conversation should be about those GM straw-dogs...the owners.
I agree with you. So, instead of calling his decision "letting Ben go", let's relabel it "saving money". #1- signing Dyess #2- turning Darko into Stuckey #3- saving money/ fiscal responsibility
People don't realize how spoiled we really were and this is a good wake up call for all the plastic fans out there. Dumars is still the man for this franchise.
Is that true? We tied the NBA record for the most consecutive Conference finals losses in a row at 3. And I am pretty sure we probably have it for the most in a row lost in 6 games. Spoiled I don't know. Frustrating - yes. I just felt that we deserved better than a team that quits in the final series. No more of that dang switch at least. Stuff like that is not normal. On Dumars - this is his time. If he can pull together another championship team, maybe a team that can win more than 1, then he will truly be larger than life. I don't know how many times that has been done. Usually the GM steps aside after the 1st run.
The Wings are better run IMO. The one thing they have the Pistons don't is great player development. They bring their youngsters along patiently, along w/ good drafting. The Pistons need to improve their drafting and development. The Wings also have consistent and identifiable style of play over the years. Look at how many youngsters were playing in the playoff when the vets got injured/needed depth. That was really impressive. I will say that Joe has been fairly quick in recognizing his mistakes and compensating for them. I think this off-season has been quite successful. Little pricey for Gordon, balanced by a good deal for CV. Get a low post guy and lessen the log jam at guard, we should have an interesting season.
For all the hype that Joe Dumars gets of being a very good GM, he hasn't show it since building the would be NBA Championship team of 04. I liked how he went about building the championship caliber team. Getting HIGH talent that was scrap pieces that other teams didn't want and overlooked. Building up the team defensively. I saw a little of it when signing Kwame Brown and Charlie V. But NOT with giving a huge contract to an undersized SG in Ben Gordon. He throw the defensive philosophy out the window with this signing. Joe shouldn't have been the nice guy in sending Chauncey back to Denver either. He should have token best deal possible, but settle for a major step back in talent and took cap space, and made it look like it was the Holy Grail or something. Joe Dumars needs to PROVE he's really that GM that won that Executive of the Year award, but he's doing a horrible job as of now of reenacting like it. It's almost like he's a fluke and is being exposed.
Nothing against the "fans" but if Dumars based his decisions on whether fans would support it, we would be signing grant hill to another contract extension. Dumars has to operate independently of what he thinks the fans have confidence in, he has to move the team towards his vision and not towards theirs. In the past 8 years most fans have begun to realize that Joe Dumars probably knows more about the NBA than them, and can see the vision. Others fans may really think its like constructing those lopsided trades on NBA Live that gets them with the sickest players out there, and anything lacking in big name players is not worth pursuing. Regardless of your level of NBA knowledge, you have to admit this, Joe Dumars at the least built a playoff team. To go through a rebuilding phase and never leave the playoffs is an amazing feat. The credit for this will not be given until the team at least reaches a conference final, and the credit will come in gushes, from all kinds of fans. I can already see bob costas or somebody talking on an on about the brilliance of Joe Dumars as the palace fills with confetti and the branded caps appear from nowhere..."When he traded for Allan Iverson, everyone thought it was impossible..." Most fans though, I think have enough faith in Joe that he will get us there. While we complain because he is not doing what we wanted him to do, in the end we realize he better not do what we want, or we'll be stuck in the teal years.
I agree with your second sentence here. That is absolutely correct. But the first sentence is taking it to the other extreme. You don't have to watch ALL the games to know what is going on. I'm not always right just like the rest of us, but I sometimes am right when someone else is wrong, when they have watched more than me. Seriously. I'm no basketball geru, so I am not smarter than any of yall. But at the same time, I also know just as much as you peeps when it comes to the Pistons. Some people aren't as smart as they think they are, so I'm not going to let them walk all over me just because they watch a few more games than me. Shoot. Joe Dumars knows more basketball than probably all of us put together, and he is at basically every game in person, yet look at some of his decisions he makes. Some people think they are hot snot on a silver platter but they are just a cold booger on a paper plate just like the rest of us.
totally useless thread. Because of it is based on speculations only. It is easier and fairer critisize players and coach because of their progress and work is seen to everyone - on the court. But GMs work is hidden behind the closed doors and and GMs are not very willing( or simply are not allowed) to reveal various "roadblocks". Btw, from where you take "is losing faith from fans?" From where do you presume that fan's expectations are justified, have touch of reality, etc? How many fans are losing their faith? It is better for everyone to acknowledge to himself that in this case everything you type here is pure speculation.
There has been no one who has lived off the 2004 championship more than Joe Dumars. There has been no one more complacent. For all the fiscal responsibility and great contracts he has produced he has done nothing with it while we see all these other contenders add piece after piece to give it another run. We are supposed to be surprised that the team goes stale when nothing is added to it for 5 years? I know we are supposed to get over the past and only look forward now, but when presented with the cap space to "re-tool" the team Joe went out and spent the majority of the money on an undersized shooting guard who while possessing unique skills for sure can not guard his position.
I feel that he waited too long to fire Curry. Maybe if he had fired Curry after the final game, he would have had a chance at a more experienced coach.
Its gems like these that make this forum great.
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