Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Ozarkruffrider, Jul 7, 2009.
Jeter i so mediocre, but you will never hear the criticism because he is a media darling.
Wow. I'm a bit flabergasted by all this. I guess yes, he is losing confidence of a lot of fans. What I don't understand though is 'how.'
He's been very good. We've had 50+ win seasons 7 times until last year. Got to the final four 6 of those 7 times. Won it all once and fell short once.
Lets look at other franchises during that same time frame:
Boston from 2001-2004, got to the ECF 1 time...dabbled as a playoff also-ran. Then plummetted to the basement in 2005-2006 before wining 1 title in 2007-2008 and promptly coming up short the next year not making it to the ECF.
Miami's run lasted 2 seasons from 04-05 where they lost to us in the ECF and then went on to win the title. After their title run they got knocked out of the 1st round and then posted a dismal 15 win season en route to a big lottery payoff. Spent the rest of that timeframe as also-rans with 40+ win seasons.
Cleveland sucked from as far back as '99 but thats out of the scope here. Even post Lebron they've made the ECF twice. Winning it 1 time to still come up short.
San Antonio has been chalking up 50+ win seasons since 99 (count the truncated 98 season with a title too). During that time, they've gone to the WCF 6 times winning it all 4 times. For this comparison, they've gone to win 3-5 WCF's and parlayed that into 3 titles.
Los Angeles has won 4 titles since '99. Since '01, they've won the WCF 4 times for 2 titles. They've also made early exits 3 times and missed the playoffs altogether 1 time with a 33 win season.
Orlando has been irrelevant until last year with one and done playoffs until the year before last where we spanked them. They've had 50+ win seasons only twice and since winning the ECF, they've made some dubious moves. Ok they always make dubious moves.
Utah has been an also ran during this whole period. made it to the WCF only 1 time where they lost. missed the playoffs altogether for 3 straight seasons.
New York. bwhahahaha....
Indiana made the ECF 1 time and spent the rest of the time losing in the first round or playing the lottery.
Dallas made the WCF 2 times winning 1 and losing 1 with no titles to show for it.
C'mon people. We are below the Lakers and the Spurs who have arguably the best Power Forward in the history of the NBA or another arguably on par with the fabled Jordan. Kudos to the Lakers who managed to get Gasol for economic relief. I mean this was why the cap exists...so big market teams cannot abuse small market teams. But whatever...different topic.
The point being is that Joe's accomplished a level of success only topped by 2 teams. So what have you done for me lately...aside from win, win playoff series and come back and win some more? What joe? Got nothing else up your sleeve? Why can't you trade two bench guys who can't stay in the league for Emeka Okafor or Deron Williams? Why not. Why can't you parley 3 2nd rounders and our 11th man into a lottery pick?
We fell apart for 1 year. Now there are moves being made. We remain, as always, financially responsible and flexible.
Mitch Kupchak's Moves - washingtonpost.com
Traded Shaq for Odom
Brought in Derek Fisher
Drafted Andrew Bynum with their 10th pick in 2005
Brought Phil Jackson out of retirement for $11.5M/year
Found a way to make Kobe happy through human interaction
Rejected trade offers that other teams made for Bynum
Drafted Crittenton at 19 and Marc Gasol at 48, which they used to package with Kwame Brown to trade for Pau Gasol (move of the year).
"Assembled a young and athletic bench with low draft picks" such as Luke Walton- 32nd/ Vujacic- 27th/ Turiaf- 37th/ Von Wafer- 39th/ Farmar- 26th
Traded Cook and Evans for Trevor Ariza
Signed Ron Artest as a FA for a very reasonable sum.
It is so much easier to make this list than it was for Joe.
WOW!!! Nice that I started this hoping for a few thoughts and got 7 pages!! The 2 hosts that I talk to the most are now getting to the point of calling the 2004 championship an abberation (Not abhorant). 'You have to have stars to win, blah, blah, blah...' So many good posts pro and con it's hard to remember them all without copy and pasting them. Frankly, I hope Joe D keeps the same vision of team BBall and no central star.
One comment that this is a useless thread has proven false. Useless threads in my opinion are repeaters and don't have any response.
My question was based on whether the fans (us) still have confidence in Joe being the GM here, because the national feel might be he's on a downhill slide.
Shaq wanted out, Joe hasn't faced that situation
Fisher wanted to be in LA and Utah let him go for nothing. Joe never had a player that would come prepackaged like that.
$11.5/year - that's a lot of money whole bunch of teams don't have
Rejecting trade is not a move, you don't know what kind of offers Joe received on the players he had
Drafting Crittenton and Gasol has nothing to do with pure luck of getting the trade through in a salary dump move. See Sheed trade.
Artest wanted to come play in LA for the below market price.
You have an advantage of the LA marketability to attract agents.
So, essentially this is not much better than Joe has done.
He also signed Bynum to a huge contract extension when it was undeserved and unnecessary. Bynum hasn't come close to playing up to his contract yet... and I'm not sure that he ever will. I'm marking that one down as a negative.
As I have stated before. Joe doesn't make moves to please the fan base, he makes decisions to make the team better from his and management's perspective. If he puts a good team on the floor, we win championships i.e., the joy trickles down to the fans.
We are not all that trust me. We are fans of the game and that's it. I wish we could just discuss X's and O's and stay out of the "What Management is doing business" because contrary to popular opinion we suck at it.
Joe does not sit at home and think about our BMCing on this and any other pistons froum, he could give two sheets and a slice of cheese over what we think. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
If we wanted to be GM's of basketball teams, I am pretty sure there is an on-line course that you can take, then you can go out and draft the Darko's & Rodney Whites of the world, then we can all sit back and scrutinize your azzes.
If you are looking for bad GM's look no further than the Wizards when Wes Unsled was in charge, which he gave up draft picks for a broken down Mark Price, look at Rod Thorn, my goodness the Clippers GM, Kerr in Phoenix, Isiah Thomas. Hell Portland picked Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan.
I am solidly backing Dumars 150%.
Darko, Arroyo, Ben Wallace, and plenty of others have wanted out of Detroit. Everytime Joe faces this situation he bends over backwards to satisfy the player.
The Gasol trade was brilliant.
Would Fisher and Artest have been indifferent between the Lakers and the Clippers? Of course not. It's not the city they are desiring, it is the likelihood of success.
$11.5M too expensive for the best? Our owner was a billionaire. We went with a cheap option at the Coach spot and our team imploded because of it, thereby ending the sell-out streak and wasting an unknown amount of money.
Artests price is market, it just includes the possibility of him going crazy. The Lakers are paying Phil the difference.
What have Mitch's worst moves been over this span? He put Von Wafer on waivers and he overpaid to keep the 2nd most promising young center in the NBA on his roster.
I don't think Joe D. should be fired. He has earned the right to rebuild this team.
I will be honest I have lost confidence in him over the last year starting with last years lack of free agent signings and the Curry hire. It is not often that you have a team that can compete and when you do you have to go all out to get the championship because it is not guranteed to make it back for some years to come. It seems like a lot of his moves are based on the bottom line and not what is best for the team. The past 4 years it seemed like he just signed a free agent just to sign them instead of paying the money to get that one player that could be an impact and put us over the hump. This last coaching search really upset me and not because we ended up hiring another assistant with no coaching experience. It was the way it was done. There was no plan. Dumars tells everyone Curry is coming back and his job is safe and then wham he is fired. Then the first choice to replace Curry is Doug Collins?? WHAT??? Then Joe goes and low balls Avery Johnson. Why even put him on the coaching list. Maybe Doug Collins walked away from the job too after he found out the terms. It just seems like the Pistons are operating in chaos. There is no firm plan, but then again we as fans don't know everything that has happen or happening behind the scenes.
I will say again Joe D. has earned the right to rebuild this team. As much as he frustrates me with his moves or lack of moves.
By wanting out I mean demanding a trade, not just pouting. It's a bit different.
Gasol fell into their lap = Sheed fell into Joe's lap. Both are brilliant, but both very very lucky.
However, it is tough to compare everything without having all of the details like ownership needs/wants, marketability of the team, and all of the talk that's going on behind the closed doors. We are left to just speculate at this point.
If Joe has 4 losing seasons in a row... broom him.
If Joe loses profit for 4 years in a row...They'll surely broom him.
He has lived off of past moves. The core is gone. If the new team doesn't start to jell, then Joe is on his way out.
Had Joe added one or two REAL pieces over the last couple of years there would not have been the need to dump our core and rebuild. he went to the well two too many years and then he publically blamed his players and started dumping them for nothing/cap room. He made poor coaching hires and he didn't add any depth. If we give him credit for the Title give him credit for the debacle.
the Pistons as we look at them today are gonna get rocked this year. Maybe he makes another awesome move, and this off season turns out to be a work of brilliance. But I think Joe D and Bill Davidson refused to step up and pay for another player to put us over the top two seasons ago. WE SHOULD HAVE HAD ANOTHER TITLE. PERIOD.
Now we have a rebuild. It is what it is. Joe presided over it. It ain't great.
Outstanding posts on pages 6 and 7 TaS, Winless W and Rob Mike. I don't get people's fascination with the middle.
Roscoe had a great point right after the draft about Joe reaching for picks well before anyone else would take them. The MLE and bi-annual exception (Piston fans should call it the bicentennial exception - I forgot it existed until recently) for whatever reason are too easy for Joe to use.
It might be fair to say that some people are critics, and that is not necessarily synonymous with being a fan.
See, it's stuff like that which is a bunch of BS. I am critical of Joe, there might be some homers here, but again, if you listened to the podcast, specifically the roundtables with Low, Max, D4E and I, there was plenty of criticism and skepticism of the franchise from top to bottom.
I think you disrespect a lot of us with statements like that.
Joe gets critique that is warranted from people with perspective. From a lot of other people, he just gets beat up over things (like FA) that they don't understand or because his decisions aren't a projection of their personal biases.
It was like the silly critiques of the new coach. People getting upset because he wasn't a name hire. Some of us appreciate that Joe did the right thing by hiring an experienced guy at a low price. Small risk, potentially big upside. People are worried about superficial criticisms instead of looking at his record.
Joe has used them, but not well. The other thing is, because he was so busy maintaining his precious core, he refused to bring in anyone who could challenge them. When he finally did that with Stuckey, his core revolted. I know other people don't see it that way, but I do.
I was particularly critical, although it might only have been in private, to Mercury, that we let Ben go for beaucoup bucks, without a S&T which was available at the time. He had done all of this salary clearing (Corliss, Darko) claiming to be to re-sign Ben, and then over a few million a year, in a front loaded deal, he got cold feet.
Hindsight shows how smart he was to let Ben go, but I still think we could have had the #3 pick in 2005 (Ben Gordon) for nothing years ago, and not had to cycle through Flip Murray et al at the #2. It might have been enough to put us over the top.
Joe is a conservative GM, who is only aggressive when the game favours him. That is how he managed to pull off the Sheed deal and get Hunter back. Or the Arroyo deal and get Elden Campbell back. That is how he traded up with Carlisle to Brown.
His slow and steady conservative approach gives up a lot of opportunities, but it is consistently successful. I think at the very least, he has earned the right to rebuild over two seasons. If he flounders, that is on him. But he deserves the chance, because he has done it before. I don't think judging him on 06~09 is fair, given that he wasn't trying to build, he was trying to maintain, and he seems to have less talent and skill at that.
Which is no great shame. I'm a better baker than a grill man.
I think we put these guys on pedestals, and then get resentful when they turn out to be just like us.
Which ones? I didn't know "fandom" was a static number? I thought the quotient on sports fans was fluid, like the ebb and flow of ocean waves.
Team support in general is an ever morphing animal. Contract a South American player and the forum gets new members from south of the border. Contract a east European and we get new members from Eastonia. Add a player from Ohio State and the forum gets hate mail ;)Send an East Euorpean away, and the Eastonians are out'a here.
Fans are fickle, many come her directly from Ficklemania (it's somewhere north of Myheadsupmybuttia)..
I don't see how. I'm specifically talking about the people who take anything negative said about Joe and proceed to call those people bandwagon a** cats, fair-weather fans, or not "real" fans. There are people who make stupid main posts/NIL syndrome solely for the purpose of stating how loyal they are to Joe and how all the "haters" aren't real Piston fans anyway.
If that doesn't apply to you, then i'm not talking about you.
How do you know that's the case? I'm upset he's an offensive coach and we keep straying further away from the philosophy that made us successful. I'm sure people have tons of reasons why they don't like the hire that have nothing to do with the coaches name not being Avery Johnson and costing 5 mil a year.
I love you to death, but you've actually gone further than I have...and it takes a lot to get past me on the defense stance. I thought I was the most extreme on this issue...and I agree with you on a lot of points...but, I really think it's a lil premature to be overly concerned about this coaching hire.
This could really work out well if the guy has reasonable coaching ability. Sure, I have my favorites that I would love to see coaching, but at the end of the day..there's nothing I could do to make my wish a reality (outside of making lame presidential posters).
We knew what we were getting with Flip (and I didn't like it). We knew what we were NOT getting with Curry (but, I figured I'd wait and see if he delivered). We have no idea what to expect with this new coach and seeing as how he comes from the Larry Brown school of coaching, my guess is he has a pretty good idea of what a reasonably decent defense consists of.
I really think you should chill a bit and see how this one works. We can't get the exact elements back in place that would take us back to that gameplan. We'll never have LB back...Ben..Chauncey....pre-post-Chauncey Rip...Sheed...Corliss...Dupree.... We can't get back there, but there can be a new cast that takes on those roles.
I personally think that sans seeing the guy I want hired, taking a guy from the LB school of coaching is the next best thing IMHO. Just let it play out for a bit and let's see what he does.
Which is like what? 2 or 3 people? If you're talking about specific individuals, there is no need to conflate them with the membership or board "attitude" at large.
When we were successful?
You mean when he coached here last?
He coached offense. That doesn't mean he doesn't coach, understand or respect defense.
So after a couple of moves, it appears Joe's current plan is to take the best available. He's been successful in that regard. He's argueably taken the best free agent values and best coach available on the market.
Problem is, compared to the championship contenders' talent level it doesn't seem like enough. Getting behind hustle and defense as prerequisites for building a championship team was an easy sale back when Joe was rebuilding the first time around. Stacking up on offense first, defense maybe players is kinda hard to digest in this basketball town. Thus, the upchucking, the complaining and the loss of confidence from fans seems to me to be perfectly natural. The only thing that seems reminiscent of Joe's first "transition" stage was his desire to bring in strong character guys.
So where lies the truth about Joe's performance?
The reality is that there is a lil' truth in both sides. Joe has made some questionable decisions for the past couple of years. Draft selection and the inability to get something in return for our old championship core are just a couple of examples. He has appeared to have slept at the wheel as Lee put it. His last two coaching hires, in my opinion cost us titles. Period. No question mark.
On the plus side, Joe has proven to be savy by locking in this free agency crop's best deals and utilizing his cap space now rather than later. Since the salary cap has made the entire Boston Celtic instant, presto changeo your a contender method seem less likely, you have to give Joe kudos. The top tier free agents are likely to stay with their existing teams next year. So, in retrospect Joe probably has played the best move possible considering the position he's put himself in. Frustration kicks in though because again...its not good enough. And the next move even if Rip is traded for a big STILL is likely not good enough.
Unfortunately, the reality just might be that there is no magic to draw upon yet. Joe's biggest problem is that he has this huge legacy to live up to. A legacy that says that he can work magic and keep us in the top tier of teams in this league all the time. The mistakes that have followed our championship run may have put us in a position that we have no choice but to be patient, attempt to be competitive and wait until the right opportunity to pull a fast one and get back in title contention.
For me its really not a matter of chastizing his current moves. Let's face it, no one who is a fan of this team has any idea where we're headed. All I know is that its highly unlikey that we are returning to prominence any time soon and I feel like it didn't need to be this way. Joe fell asleep.
So where does that leave me, the diehard fan who wants to win championships now and get my braggin' rights back when I'm in basketball arguements with my friends. I have to forgive Joe and see where this takes us. Cause even if I'm completely convinced that Joe screwed up royaly, I can't say I'd want anyone else to take his spot. That type of uncertainty at the head could take us back another 10 years! I just wish he hadn't already broke the formula of how he constructed the first team. I am no longer sure what seperates Joe's moves from the moves of other GMs who have had their teams stuck in mediocrity for years. That alone is unsettling.
Way to put it in perspective Slippy. Great post.
Separate names with a comma.