It's time to **** or get off the pot

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by mercury, Nov 27, 2005.

  1. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,157
    Likes Received:
    2,016
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    There is this small matter of homecourt and how it bit us in the arse last year against SA. You don't want to try to win a series from the 4th (or worse) seed in the best division in basketball.

    You also don't want to go back into San Antonio where the Spurs are almost impossible to beat for another Game 7.

    There is a need for an either or. We know what Dice can do. We don't know what Darko can do. Heck, he could be Sam Bowie Version II. The trick is to trade him before anyone else sees what I see. While they are still drunk on the "Dirk Nowitski" kool-aid myth.

    I'd love for Darko to play like Bogut. or Krstic. or Pachulia. But he doesn't. He's the slowest developing #2 pick in the history of the human race. He's not scrappy, he's not aggressive, and he's not hungry to prove himself. Those are not things you can teach. Let someone else invest the minutes on a squad going nowhere to find out.
  2. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,587
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Sterling Heights, MI
    lol that's what i was gonna say...if anything you trade darko for harrington and improve your chance for a title *this year* ... getting rid of mcdyess is something we *cannot* afford to do.
  3. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    3,396
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Amish Hood
    I dunno, I'm not as ready to give up hope for the future just yet (but I could be convinced).
    After going thru the lean years when Vitale gave up picks that would have been McHale & Parrish... and all the lean years in the 60's & 70's you have to at least keep one eye on the future of the franchise.

    Now if you could find another quality young big in return that might do the trick.
    Flip did say he might have to sacrifice for the youth recently... so we'll see... just not too many at the same time... that's just looking for failure.

    Micro, sounds like you're completely convinced that Darko's a washout?

    I gotta see at least a season with 20 MPG.... even then you get late bloomers.
  4. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    3,396
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Amish Hood
    Al > Dice... and 25 years old.
  5. LanierFan

    LanierFan Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    Stay the course, at least for now. The best deals happen later when teams have played themselves out of contention anyway. Only value in acting hastily is scratching the itch of impatient fans, and anybody who can't live with .800 ball can lump it.

    EDIT: I just found this and thought I'd add it to our simmering pot. Final paragraph gives you the writer's point in a nutshell.

    http://www.hoopsanalyst.com/0506ew5.htm
  6. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2005
    Messages:
    3,869
    Likes Received:
    959
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Howard Stubb's garage
    Lanierfan

    I read that Hoopsanalyst bit when it came out and pretty much discounted it. The author is making a statistical analysis of Darko based on his stats so far. The whole thing is skewed by Darko's lack of PT and the subject has been covered more intelligently and in-depth, countless numbers of times in the forums.

    And .800 ball during the first ten games of a season isn't something I want to base decision making on.
  7. lazyberbs

    lazyberbs First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    775
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Central Michigan
    There is no evidence that

    playing Darko more minutes loses games, and until there is some evidence, we need to play him more. He should get at least 10-12 minutes a game and be able to earn more.

    Sheed might move over to the 3 at times, depending on who the opponent is, and Dyce seems to be in the flow now, allowing a few minutes for DMC.

    Just from a humane point of view, I would like to get Dyce a ring, so I would not like to see him go. But remember we have Dale for some work if Dyce goes and DMC "sucks", which will not happen with some additional minutes.

    But for the near future, just get him some minutes against the Knicks and let him do some work there :eyebrows:. Jeez, his ability to change a game should be evident and when he gets a few more minutes, he shold be able to score some points. Tell him if you want rebounds over blocks, and his passing is plenty good right now. He sees the floor well and passes, maybe too much. He needs to score but I believe he has to have his number called for that. Am I right? Would he have that kind of permission to try to score if the situation develops?

    I will be back on the forum probably by early December. Keep my spot warm for me, OK? :nod:
  8. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    Messages:
    14,800
    Likes Received:
    2,887
    Location:
    Michigan
    Microwave and Mercury

    Some day, you two will eventually "get it".
  9. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,157
    Likes Received:
    2,016
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    I'll go out on a limb, and say yes. Darko is a washout. Fans are wringing their fans worried if he will come back to bite us later. I freaking doubt it!

    Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade bite us NOW during the championship window. We're hoping the kid turns out to be Nowitski while the Amare Stoudemires and Dwight Howards of the world are bringing it NOW.

    How many years do we let this draft pick hold us hostage?

    From the Oakland Press (this is what set me off) :frusty:

    Why? Why does a 3rd year player surrounded by one of the best organizations and a roster full of consummate vets need guidance from a late first round pick?

    Gee, where have we heard this before? Should we turn over coaches again? Trade our bigs until he is a starter?

    When you are getting shown up by the guy 2 roster positions down the bench from you, that's not a stud. That's not a franchise player. Does Darko have heart? What about this kid who played with bombs going off outside? Where is the desire and passion?

    Well, if he's not a consistent defender, we know he isn't a consistent scorer, so what the heck is he? When do we find out?

    If you are going to argue with me on this, bring some facts. I'm all out of feel good optimism and blind faith.
  10. Abe Froemen

    Abe Froemen First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2005
    Messages:
    450
    Likes Received:
    0
    not just yet

    I feel that we should give Darko more burn but not at the risk of losing Dyess. Trading Dyess for Harrington is never going to happen period. Atlanta has already helped us out more than they probably wanted to and I don’t see them doing it again.

    Darko is just victim to playing behind one of the best frontcourts assembled. In this day and age a player who does not play is not going to stick around. As hard as it is for me to understand the wait my turn philosophy we have taken with him it will bite us in the arse. He will not stay unless we over pay.

    Darko is displaying d by altering shots yes Ben can block a shot and control the rebound but how many other players have his kind of body control. The fact that Darko is getting blocks is why he is not getting the board. If you are in position to block the shot you are not in position to get the rebound! He has to learn how to be ready for both.

    As far as timing that comes with playing if he had more time I think you would see a different Darko

    So basically I agree yes it is time but not by trading away Dyess there are other ways to come to up with the right result
  11. Abe Froemen

    Abe Froemen First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2005
    Messages:
    450
    Likes Received:
    0
    micro

    So then why is Joe resigning the kid, extending a contract that means ZERO? Why has the organization gone to the lengths of letting memo go elsewhere when we could have kept him and let Darko go? Why when the pistons talk about him they talk about the future? Why would you sell the future to win now? Don’t you believe that you can do both win now and plan ahead? Granted other players could help win now but what about 5 years from now do you want to be the Atlanta hawks but without the draft picks because we sold them off to win now??? If that is your attitude then why don’t you want to pull the plug on a Ben and Darko deal for kg or a Sheed and Darko deal? Hell give them 3 or 4 future picks and win now cuz apparently that is all that matters
  12. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    detroit
    i agree with you lee there is no reason to trade dice to get more minutes for darko. sheed played over 50 minutes the other night i'm sure he would have gladly gave a few of those to darko.

    it's good in a way that people are sleeping on darko's talent. darko can shoot, pass, defend and intimidate. some people think he's only a shot blocker. lol. but what's really bad is some people think he's not valuable if that's all he does right now in his career.

    microwave. do you remember the drive on diop?? that is a time when darko scored on a 7 footer. do you remember the dunk on mourning that's a score on a 7 footer. darko can score on whoever he needs to no matter what the size. flip just needs to give him the green light. it's obvious flip has been trying to get dice into the flow so it's hurt a little bit of dmc's development. darko has been doing exactly what the coaching staff is telling him i'm sure. to come into the game and change it defensively.
  13. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,962
    Likes Received:
    34
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tampa, Florida
    Hey bro (Micro),

    You know I've been one of Darko's staunchest critics, but I actually was pretty happy with last game's performance.

    I think Darko is slowly coming along this year. I am skeptical that he will evolve into a franchise player, but I do think he can help our ballclub. I honestly haven't seen him play himself off the court this year. Perhaps I am blind or not paying strict enough attention though. His only glaring weakness for me is rebounding. He needs to use the same amount of agression he uses going after block shots when attacking the boards/loose balls. If he can work on that, I think he will see more time on the court. I think the problem is that we keep looking at this dude as a potential franchise player. I think that is a mistake. Perhaps he will just be a role player. That's alright. His presence will be felt more when Lindsey returns and we start to press/trap the basketball. This will make for more rushed shots due to an exhausted shot clock and more shot blocking opportunites for our front court.

    There's no need to jump the gun on this one. Our pressing need is still for a legit backup small. For me that is much more of an issue than Darko right now.
  14. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    detroit
    how many rings do bosh, wade, howard or stoudamire have??? 1 less than darko. how many finals have they been in?? 2 less than darko. has our championship window closed because of darko? nope.

    jmax has shown he can hog and put up shots in garbage time. i wouldn't want darko shooting the rock everytime he touches it.

    darko is a athletic 7 foot shot blocker with many more skills. darko has the luxury of waiting the pistons out. if the pistons dont' want to give him a fair shot at least 25 other nba teams will.

    darko isn't happy with his situation. we need to take care of our players to get them to sign for less. why pay darko all those millions just for atlanta to sign him after his contract comes up?? darko needs minutes and a role on the team or we risk losing him to free agency. his strong preseason performances were not rewarded with more playing time. so of course the guy won't be happy.

    i disagree about maxiell showing darko up. jmax shoots every time he touches it. that's a guy trying to pad stats in garbage time. darko is an unselfish team player. he fits into the pistons mold of team first much more than maxiell does. if you can't see building around an athletic 7 foot great passing / shot blocker on a defense first unselfish team then you don't have vision like joe d does.

    where are your facts?? you are just quoting from an article. all quotes from flip were probably taken out of context. i've watched the games and the one thing darko has been consistent with has been his defense. his shot was hitting especially when he playing time was consistent. you can't judge a guys shot when he's only getting 3 shots a game. that's why some of us are calling for giving the guy a legit shot. play him 20 minutes and see what he can do. run plays for him see if he can hit shots.
  15. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    detroit
    good points. some people believe you have to follow some pattern that you win for 3 years and then rebuild. it doesn't have to be like that and joe dumars knows that. our window won't close for another 6 years if it closes then.

    we are winning and planning for the future. we are doing a good job of it. 2 nba finals means we are doing ok at winning and planning for the future.

    why trade for a backup 2/3 when we have 2 perfectly good guys on the bench. mo evans and delfino are both solid players they are just stuck behind tay. it's so weird that our starting 6 is so good it makes us spoiled and it makes it look like our bench isn't that good.
  16. Abe Froemen

    Abe Froemen First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2005
    Messages:
    450
    Likes Received:
    0
    not going to happen

    In his current role Darko is in a slightly better role than he was in under
    Larry he still gets pulled way to early to show improvement. When Darko gets in I'm sure he does not have a green light to just shoot whenever he feels so inclined. If you look at the minutes and divide it up he has played like 10 NBA games in 3 years. 10 games in 3 years yep I think that is worth repeating. How many rookies show their full potential after 10 games a very small handful? And that basically puts him in the same category as the rookies in my book. If you want to see the kid do anything he needs more time. He needs to be on the court. I think the whole team would be willing to give the kid more time as long as it didn’t hurt in putting up a W in the win column. I would even go as far as saying I bet Ben would gladly let the kid play so he can rest after a back to back or especially now his foot is sore. If we start to go down by 6 or 8 points throw Ben in the game and help him understand what he was doing wrong. Come playoff time if he has not gotten enough pt then he might as well just sit with Joe up in the box seats cuz he won’t be able to help on the court


    i just checked and i have to correct myself darko has played 494 minutes so that boils down to 11 games in three years still pathetic

  17. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,157
    Likes Received:
    2,016
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    It doesn't mean zero. It means that the Pistons will retain his rights when he becomes a free agent. This means that the window to trade him becomes longer, guarantees that he plays a 4th year at a reasonable salary and Detroit has the right to match any or all offers, making a Grant Hill type S&T possible.

    I wouldn't look at extending the contract as some sort of vote of confidence. It's strictly business procedure to keep the maximum # of options open for the #2 pick asset.
  18. Abe Froemen

    Abe Froemen First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2005
    Messages:
    450
    Likes Received:
    0
    asset to who

    given your insight the kid is a bust how is a bust an asset??????
    who wants to say yep we signed that darko kid he was a bust but i think he can help our crappy team???
  19. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,157
    Likes Received:
    2,016
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    There are bad GMs in this league who will take a chance that something can be made of Darko. Heck some folks on here won't believe the stat sheet, their own eyes or the comments of his coach. Plenty of people who think that this remarkable athleticism is going to translate into something.

    I'm not saying Darko doesn't have the tools. I'm saying that he doesn't have the heart to be a Detroit Piston. He'll fit in on any squad looking for youth and height like Charlotte, Atlanta, NO/OKC, Toronto etc.

    Sorry if thats not what folks want to read, but we have lowered the standard for this kid from being great to hoping he'll be "ok" everytime he hits the court. We have stopped expecting greatness and now we hope he can make his jumper. That in my mind is completely ridiculous.

    As far as being an asset, even an asset with low value still has some worth. If Joe didn't take the option, he was likely surrendering any trade option for Darko, even for a second round pick because no one was going to trade anything of worth for Darko's expiring deal. The value is too low.
  20. Abe Froemen

    Abe Froemen First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2005
    Messages:
    450
    Likes Received:
    0
    Micro

    You still have not said anything about a deal that would guarnsheed winning now as implausible as it may be giving the t-wolves Ben or Sheed + Darko+ bunches of picks for kg is, it would almost certainly give us the win now mentality that you seem to crave. If that is your logic (win now) then why has this deal not been done???? Or do you have to consider 3 years from now when the team expects Darko to be good if not great (granted he wont be here but) Draw the line in the sand win now at all costs or still have a team that can compete down the road

Share This Page