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Iverson speaks candidly

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by lpgrl26, Jul 8, 2009.

  1. Star Jones

    Star Jones First Round Draft Pick

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    Do you honestly believe that any former MVP would willingly go to the bench? If you do, name them. I'll do what I can to track them down, buy them a couple of drinks and get a truthful answer from them to find out for sure.

    Do you honestly believe that any player that is merely one badly coached season from being in the top ten in both points and (I believe) assists would easily agree to go to Memphis automatically knowing that he would be going to the bench?

    Not San Antonio. Not the Lakers. Not the Celtics. Memphis. Or New York. Or Oklahoma City. Or a bunch of other teams where you are simply the better player. You don't lose the starting position, you are not even considered for the starting position. That's ridiculous.

    You think Ray Allen was thrilled when they suggested that he come off the bench in Seattle? You think Hamilton is going to be happy when he's shipped off to a team that isn't willing to change their primary offense around to suit him? I think he's going to find out that a starter in Detroit isn't necessarily a starter elsewhere, much like Allen found out that a starter elsewhere, isn't necessarily one in Detroit.

    Remember this: the notion of Allen coming off the bench wasn't even bandied about until he got to Detroit. Michael Curry is now the pulse of NBA coaching? Personally, if that was an idea of Michael's, as another coach, I would go in the opposite direction, just because.

    One last question. Do you honestly believe that Allen thought it would or should be a situation of either him or Hamilton? I think both in question thought and couldn't believe that it wasn't Stuckey that went back to the bench.
     
  2. Latinoking90

    Latinoking90 Bench Warmer

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    So because you win an MVP award 9 years ago, that means that you still have to be a starter in this league? Why can't he take an explosive 6th man role? Worked well for Ben Gordon. Even more, why should he start when he's not the future of the Grizzles, OJ Mayo is. Why hurt Mayo's development for Mr. MVP of 2001?

    If he want a job, which he certainly is having trouble looking for one. You mean to tell me that he should start over Kobe (you listed the Lakers)? Don't tell me he can be a PG...it's been an epic fail of a role for him as of late.

    Of course, NBA players aren't thrilled when they could or do potentially lose their starting role, but in the end of the day. Players need to recognize that their are not playing for themselves, they are playing for the jersey they put on.

    At very least TGRH accepted it, and proved that their should be some competition for the job, not just because they did a vote.

    What did AI do once he was "benched", he went clubbing, fooled around in the casinos, and later stayed home to later be humiliated by ABC in the playoffs.

    I believe Richard Hamilton can have success in other teams where he be that scorer, so he won't cry too much. If he went to Utah (Boozer rumor) for example, he will have Deron Williams likewise, if he went to NO (Chandler rumor we make up), he will have CP3. He needs a true PG.
     
  3. Star Jones

    Star Jones First Round Draft Pick

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    If you are better than the players ahead of you, then you should be a starter. MVP or not.

    He can't be a sixth man because what most people expect of a sixth man, he is not. Detroit tried to make him a jump shooter as a starter, when he's never been one. They also expected him to produce the same sort of numbers in a drastically reduced role when the magic of his game has been wearing down a defender, defenses and getting to the line.

    I could never figure out the fans' belief that if he went to the bench, the other team would only play their second unit against him and then suddenly the refs would get whistle happy because Allen is on the floor.

    That made no sense whatsoever. Sixth men come in and for the most part, have to deal with the already determined flow of the game. Allen's career has been built on determining the flow of the game.

    Also comparing Ben Gordon, even if he is a Piston, to Allen is a bit of a stretch.

    It can be argued that Hamilton went along with it because by that point, it was clear that Allen would not be in Detroit the next year and also because it was also clear that the team would revolt. Which they did. He went home and sulked? The Pistons showed up every night and sulked.

    So, because of the epic fail of the entire Pistons season, Allen shouldn't be allowed to honestly compete for a starting job on a team? Who's to say that losing every night is going to help O.J.'s future? Why or how can a guy's decision making that couldn't even earn him a second year as a coach be the determining factor in the rest of Allen's career?

    I listed the Lakers, San Antonio and the Celtics because those are teams that actually have coaches and teams that could honestly and logically request an Allen, a Carmelo, a Dwyane, etc. to come off the bench for whatever reason.

    Detroit of last year? No. Memphis of next year? No. New York of next year? No.
     
  4. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    @LK, everyone goes to casinos and clubbing during the season. We just don't hear much about it unless there is an incident.

    @Star, it's all moot really. I think that without anyone seriously pursuing AI, he's going to have a hard time getting a job. I think if he was serious about carrying on his career, he would use this opportunity to snag the longest possible contract, come off the bench if necessary and graft himself onto something great and contribute what he can.

    But when Memphis seems to be the only suitor for him, and on a one year deal, the jig is up.

    I'm not making a statement about whether or not it is fair, or deserved or whatever. The reality is, no one has a burning desire to add AI to their roster to match his lack of desire to become what teams think they need. I can see him not playing again unless he is willing to make the first move.
     
  5. brofmfa

    brofmfa Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    All those names were paid less than AI then. :rolleyes:
     
  6. Star Jones

    Star Jones First Round Draft Pick

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    The Detroit situation? Yeah, it doesn't matter anymore. However, there is something to be said that making him a sixth man was never thought of until he got to Detroit.

    Now, as for the grafting? I'd rather him finish a career without a championship than sitting in somebody else's litte red wagon as they drag him to a parade. I mean would Karl Malone's ring really be seen in the same light or held up to the same esteem as his MVP trophy? One, he would get because of two guys that earned their rings prior to his arrival. The other he got because he earned that trophy on his own.

    If all of Kobe's rings were Shaq's, then surely Karl's would've been. I think Allen feels that way too.

    If he goes to Memphis, they get to the playoffs, then he can honestly say that he was a part of that improvement. Just as he can honestly say that he was a part of Denver's improvements for two straight years.

    I think he's desperate to earn a ring, not just getting a ring. Dennis Rodman earned his ring. Robert Horry earned his rings. Vinnie Johnson earned his ring.

    I don't know if Allen or anyone else for that matter, would believe that he earned a ring sitting on the bench of the Lakers or Celtics. Maybe San Antonio since he'd be sitting most of the time with Manu, but I would think that most players of that caliber would want to earn their keep, not be merely tolerated.

    I mean can you blame him? Who wants to be merely tolerated? He did that in Detroit and I personally don't want to see him or anybody have to go through that, especially if it's not about the money, but the game.

    Dwyane Wade seems to want Allen to come to Miami to earn and help Dwyane earn another ring. Maybe even as a starter. :sssh: We'll see where he ends up.

    P.S. Reopen the thread. We're all adults, we can take it. We don't know where anyone lives, no one will get shot.

    P.P.S. Mitch Albom on the Sports Reporters today? Smart guy. :)
     
  7. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    But it was inevitable. Very few players end their careers as starters. When he was making $20 million, it was necessary that he play the bulk of the minutes. When he is only a $4 or $5 million investment (average salary) then the game changes.

    No, but close. Time is a funny thing. People only remember the high points and the low points, not the points inbetween. It's how we are naturally biased.

    Horry and VJ earned their rings off the bench. And they are no less champions for it.

    VJ stepped aside for Joe D and that made the team better. Dantley wouldn't step aside for Worm, and he didn't get a ring. Iverson is going about this all wrong if he wants to win a title. He's emulating the guys who didn't know when to hold'em and when to fold'em, and now the house doesn't seem ready to advance him any credit.

    Whether or not you are an adult is besides the point.

    You know discussions in that manner don't belong here.
     
  8. max

    max All-Star

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    Star - I was very disappointing on how things turned out. I was thrilled when the trade went down. A true champion creates his own success and does not make up excuses, which is about all we got from AI - excuses.

    AI was just not the same player. I don't have tapes from a couple of years ago to compare it with but if you watched a game from then versus one from last year then I am sure the difference would be striking. He did not have that same quick step anymore. He had a hard time getting by players.

    Teams tend to get better as the season goes on and we never did. This is a big reason for the dropoff.

    Does Denver miss him either or was that another case of the team not using him right?
     
  9. Star Jones

    Star Jones First Round Draft Pick

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    The Denver situation seems to be: don't play the Lakers, you'll lose.

    With Allen, they lost in the first round. Without Allen, they lost in the WCFs. Either way, no ring. If Denver is satisfied with extra playoff checks, then they don't miss him at all. If they won't be satisfied until they get a ring, then they still can't say that Allen was the reason as to why they didn't get one when he was there or that Chauncey will be why they do.

    Roscoe, I agree with you about Robert and Vinnie and how they earned their rings. But, Allen isn't the same type of player that they were, so he can't be expected to do what they did. He's not Mr. Jumpshot and no team of any worth is suddenly going to open up the lane just so a team can justify Allen coming off the bench. Nor are the referees going to say, well, now, we're calling the game in a way that Allen can make X amount points before he goes back to the bench.

    Robert made wide open jumpers off a drawn in defense watching Kobe and Shaq. Rick Fox did the same thing. Allen is the guy that draws in the defense. Robert's play is what made him a good sixth man. Allen's play is what helps good sixth men. Their play makes them two completely different weapons of attack for a team. Allen turning 34 and making less money isn't going to suddenly change that.

    High points, low points, it's not the same anymore. This is the era of the asterisk and if a player isn't one of the main guys getting the job done, then his championship ring isn't going to be respected. Allen playing a token 10-15 minutes isn't going to garner any respect and only an outside chance at a ring, I think that matters to him.

    It's easy to say that it's all about ego, but to me, there is a difference between ego and pride. Could he be too proud to come off the bench for a championship caliber team? Perhaps. But, please! Have some pride and don't reduce yourself to that for the likes of Memphis.

    Ultimately, he'll have to make the decision of whether he wants to go along for the ride or if he wants to help chart out the trip. Hopefully, he'll wait it out a little longer to see what Miami and now, Charlotte are willing to offer.
     
  10. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    You have this wrong. Team players win in the playoffs. Derek Fisher. Bruce Bowen. Lindsey Hunter. Steve Kerr.

    Allen refuses to play a role that makes his teammates better, and empowers his coach. It is what it is. He'll never win a title doing it his way, and he seems to be ok with it. After what went down in Detroit, and my backing him most of the season, I have to admit, he talks a lot but he doesn't walk the walk. Real men walk the walk about doing anything for the team when that is what they say. Forget Rip, who also exposed himself as phony, all the excuses in the world don't validate AI showing a lot less class than someone like Antonio McDyess, who was a guy truly playing for pride and doing anything to win a title.

    He's already lost a ton of respect over the last season. His current routine is doing nothing to save or rehabilitate his reputation. No one respects his demands now. I guarantee you, like Dantley, he will be forgotten by the casual fans and shunned by the NBA intelligensia if he keeps this up.

    Whether he lit the bridges on fire or not, they are burning, and only he can put those fires out.

    It's a shame because I actually like the guy. It would be cool to see him win a title. But it doesn't seem to be in the cards.
     
  11. Latinoking90

    Latinoking90 Bench Warmer

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    It's simply the system Detroit has since Curry learned from Flip. I agree however, that the rotations were shaky. This team simply should have let AI be AI, but as a 6th man. He would have been amazing imo.

    The world isn't against AI. If you can prove that the refs would really give mess with AI, then fine. But unless you can prove it, don't post statements as such.

    Did BG have to play with the determined flow of the Bulls? I guess not, if he was their best scorer. I agree it's a stretch but they are both explosive scorers when hot.

    He went along, and succeeded in that role. He clearly wanted to start again. He didn't just go along with it, because if he would have, he would have been so determined in my honest opinion. He came out with statements to the press, and the team didn't revolt. Yes, I believe he did sulk, he lied saying he would do everything for this team, but when push came to shove. He said he rather retire then come off the bench. The Pistons didn't sulk, you are now adding guys like McDyess and Will Bynum to the mix. They didn't sulk, I admit they lost games. But the entire Pistons crew didn't sulk.

    I certainly believe that the Grizzles certainly want OJ Mayo to be part of the future. It's the same reason that Joe traded Chauncey Billups. For the development of Rodney Stuckey. If I was a coach, I would want the guy who's my future to play as much as possible. Not the guy just playing for a paycheck.

    I see, but two of the guys you listed are in their prime (D-Wade and Melo) and are still young and are consider top players. While on the other hand Allen Iverson is an old veteran and can still be consider a top player, but last season sure didn't help him. Now people see him as a hard headed player, who's hell bend on starting or retiring.
     
  12. Latinoking90

    Latinoking90 Bench Warmer

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    It might be cool Rosoce, but does he deserve one?
     
  13. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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  14. Star Jones

    Star Jones First Round Draft Pick

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    Three point shooter and known for defense. Three point shooter and known for defense. Three point shooter and especially known for dirty defense. Three point shooter. Of course, Allen could become one of those guys by coming off the bench for a championship team. All he has to do is agree to do it.

    Antonio McDyess' career is nothing near what it was supposed to be after the injuries. He had no choice but to reinvent himself to simply play in the League, for any team, for any amount of money, for any amount of minutes. That's not a good comparison. It's just not. The original Antonio was a beast. The post surgical Antonio was simply playing to be able to fulfill his dreams. Same thing with Grant Hill. Your mentality changes greatly when you may lose everything prematurely to an injury.

    Adrian Dantley was probably a better all around player than Allen, but he was never the star or had the same impact on the game as Allen did. Another bad comparison. Now, maybe Dominique would be a better comparison. He was the face of the Hawks. Adrian was not the face of the Pistons.

    I didn't suggest that the world was against Allen. What I said is why would anyone think that because he simply steps on the floor, the game will automatically tilt so dramatically that it would be obvious that he comes off the bench. The game doesn't work that way.

    The whistle happy statement would be whistles for Allen, not against him. If the officials have been calling a game where handchecks are allowed, they aren't going to change that just because Allen is on the floor.

    If the other coach knows that Allen comes in at particular point in a quarter, do you really think he's not going to make sure his top defenders are in the game with him?

    If when Allen comes in the game, it's supposed to be IversonTime, then wouldn't the other team's defense be geared to stop him? If he has to go through five guys because he's playing with four guys that aren't threats, then how is that beneficial to a team?

    That's why I didn't understand the: OMG, he'd be the greatest 6th man ever, no one could stop him! Uh, yeah, they could. They'd do what they did to him for 10 years in Philadelphia, they just wouldn't have to do it for as many minutes.

    And what I just wrote has nothing to do with Allen, that's just how I understand NBA basketball.

    Ben Gordon, another shooter and part time PG. He was one of their better scorers because of his shooting. Allen is a great scorer because of his ability to get to the rim, the line and the occasional jumpshot. Not a good comparison. Ben Gordon=Chuck Person, not the imagined Allen.

    O.J. Mayo wouldn't come off the bench because of Allen. Michael Conley, Jr. would. I've read what some Memphis fans have thought about it and they'd toss Michael under the bench if given the choice. So, there would be no threat to O.J.'s future in Memphis, unless they choose losing over starting Allen.

    But, if the Lakers and the Celtics have a system that they can prove works, which they do, then prime or not, they could conceivably ask a Carmelo or Dwyane to go to the bench. Just like San Antonio asked a still in his prime Manu to go to the bench.

    If you told me that San Antonio approached Allen and said: we're getting rid of Manu, but you can come here and go crazy off the bench just like he does. Or, you know how sometimes, all we want from Tony is to just drive to the rim and make passes second? That's what we want from you, just from the bench.

    And he still wouldn't come off the bench, then I'd say that Allen has lost his mind. But, no team of that caliber is requesting that or even suggesting that is what they want. It's all just a vague, you gotta come off the bench for every team in the League, championship caliber or not. That's crazy.
     
  15. The Palace Artest

    The Palace Artest First Round Draft Pick

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    In serious talks with the Clippers.

    So much for wanting to win. And yes, just because Rip is an a-hole doesn't excuse Iverson for being completely phony.
     
  16. illadelph dynamite

    illadelph dynamite First Round Draft Pick

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    Not sure why the Clippers are interested TBH...
     
  17. House Dressing

    House Dressing Bench Warmer

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    For some of the same reasons the Pistons were interested: He sells tickets. I wonder what our new promotion will be now that we can't market the Fiverson Plan.
     
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    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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