Iverson will do 'whatever it takes'

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by markie8002000, Mar 5, 2009.

  1. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    This is different though. This isn't like the Isiah Thomas, Joe D., Vinnie situation because AI is like Isiah Thomas. We are basically benching Isiah Thomas (AI) and starting Joe D and Vinnie (Rip and Stuck). But I do agree that AI should regain confidence of his teammates and himself by coming off the bench. I really do hope it works out. He is a much better player than he has shown so far and it would suck not to make use of that in this year's playoffs against the Boston, Cleveland, or Orlando.
  2. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    The straight up comparisons are not very good, because they are all such different players.

    One thing the bad boys would do, is sacrifice their own games for one another. Zeke could have scored 30 a night, but he chose to dish 10 assists. Joe would draw tough defensive assignments. Vinnie sat if his shot wasn't working. Sometimes, the microwave didn't turn on.

    But guys rotated through roles based on need and situation. Similar to how Rip volunteered to defend Chauncey the other night. That was normal for the Bad Boys to do. Keep rotating defenders until someone could get stops.

    Today's coaches are a lot less imaginative, and players are just not willing to put it all out there, take up challenges during the game to get the win.
  3. OLD SKOOL HQ

    OLD SKOOL HQ All-Star

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    Good call, Lobster-breath!! I agree. AI can ONLY do one thing_ FIRE UP SHOTS!
    And if yall think he's gonna be effective playing only 20 minutes a game going 4 of 11 every time out?
  4. max

    max All-Star

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    Vinnie was a 30+ yr player in his last few playing years by the time they were winning championships. Stucky is the future. AI is not going to be here next year so thats why Stucky is getting the time. Hopefully it will payoff next year.

    Maybe a better analogy would have been to start Vinnie and bring Dumars off the bench but they were trying to build something for the future as well.

    I used to think back in AI's prime how much he resembled Isiah. As in thats what Isiah would have been like on a bad team. Play too long on bad teams and you pick up bad habits and if done long enough its hard to change that. Having a guy take so many shots that he is only shooting barely above 40% is not the way to win a title.
  5. OLD SKOOL HQ

    OLD SKOOL HQ All-Star

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    I promise u this MAx, Zeke would have NEVER palyed on a bad team! LOL...

    The difference? DNA, baby...DNA.



    (unrealted: steve bardo just said on The Mich-Minn bcast: "Aint no future in yo frontin!" LMAO..NOW THATS Old skool!)
  6. max

    max All-Star

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    When you think about it he did. For his 1st few years in the league.

    He came in when - 1981.
  7. pass99

    pass99 Team Captain Forum Donor

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    It is no longer an issue. There is no going back.

    JD had a unique opportunity (which was in essence almost impossible for him to realize) to step into this team's face during the losing streak and now everyone has a distinct insight into the black eye this organization took over this episode. You see, it wasn't the consecutive loss of games that made them look bad, it was the elimination and resulting up-tick of showing everyone that they got their way.

    AI is now in a no win situation. Even as a bench player, this team loses. This reinforces the stigma of his bad chemistry. I am no long waiting for the puritans to re-brand that "A" on his forehead forever, regardless of any position on this team. Might Rose might be saying to himself, that why would the piston players (the administration has been shamed enough) want this odious odor even on their bench? Why would they want to unbalance the purity of this team's charisma toward each other?

    Marcus the Physician called yesterday on the marble Zeus. Though marble and though Zeus, the funeral is today.

    Nicarchus
  8. max

    max All-Star

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    I would imagine AI will be playing a lot better when he gets back. Playing injured was probably half the problem right there.
  9. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    I just caught an old interview w/ Steven A. Smith (grain of salt), but he mentioned that in terms of Rip going to the bench, some players didn't understand why AI and Rip couldn't start together. Interesting thought.
  10. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I sure never understood it. Two all stars versus a second year player - a pretty good second year player, but still. Maybe Joe D dictated that Stuckey had to start, who knows. Ultimately though I think it was a total lack of imagination and X&O ability on the part of the coaching staff, a complete inability to find an offensive structure in which both guys could excel.
  11. max

    max All-Star

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    I don't think thats a slam on AI. They are trying to develop the next point guard. I think the fear was that if AI/Rip started then Stucky would be lost in shuffle and would get inconsistant mins like AA is getting and then we would not know what we have going into next year.

    The crucial issue going into the summer is do we have the next point in Stucky or not. If not then we can't afford to waste next year trying to figure that out.
  12. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    I just don't see it that way (AI = Zeke). Isiah was a TRUE PG and the offense flowed like a river when he ran the show. IMO, AI is more like a red-hot Microwave with instant offense that can be tapped at any time.

    Allen Iverson is the best little-man SCORER of all time.
    Isiah Thomas is the best little-man PLAYER of all time.


    The whole "Rodney Stucky is the PG of the future" is only half the argument for for him starting. It IS a valid point but not the final word.

    The final word is that an "emerging" PG and an All-Star SG are much better than TWO All-Star SGs. With Rip and AI playing the bulk of the minutes with each other, the offense ran like a '76 Chevy Vega with 3 tires missing and no steering wheel.

    ...heck, even a genius like Michael Curry can see that.
  13. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Sorry, not the final word for me. I just don't think the Pistons offense is structured in a way that requires exceptional point guard play. Most of the time the PG is responsible for bringing the ball up and making one pass and then other players are supposed to move it around to get a shot. This is why CB, a prototype combo guard if there ever was one, fit so well - he could hang out and make himself available for long jumpers when nothing else seemed to be happening, or drive off someone else's pass. The Pistons offense (as structured) would waste a Nash, Kidd, Paul, Williams type, but it was custom made for Billups.

    I think the reason it ran so badly with AI was that Curry never changed it to incorporate a different style of play. He basically expected AI to hang out and make threes, which he can't do. Personally I think he didn't change it because he didn't have the skills, but maybe there were other reasons too.

    Stuckey played, what, half a season last year? If he had been brought along a little more slowly this year, maybe he wouldn't have hit the wall quite so hard over the past month or so.
  14. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    Are you trying to tell me that an offensive mastermind like Michael Curry can't figure out how to devise some sets to utillize the skills of Rip AND AI together?

    That's some HATIN' right there dawg!
  15. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    The Vinnie Johnson/ Iverson comparison is not that far off.

    VJ '89-
    17.3 FGA/36 min
    .508 TS%
    .470 eFG
    4.2 ast/ 36 min

    VJ '90
    14.1 FGA/36 min
    .467 TS%
    .434 eFG
    4.7 ast/36 min

    AI '09
    14.5 FGA/36 min
    .505 TS%
    .434 eFG
    4.8 ast/ 36 min

    AI shoots at the same frequency of '90 Vinnie. He has the same eFG of '90 Vinnie. He has the same TS% of '89 Vinnie. He passes the ball like '90 Vinnie.

    Also, AI is shooting .313 from 3-point range this year and 1990 Vinnie shot .295 from deep.


    For some reason, bringing Vinnie off the bench worked like a charm. Let's hope that bringing AI off the bench works for all the same reasons.


    Looks like I found my VJ equivalent!
  16. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    If it does work, we can nickname AI "the Little Toaster Oven".
  17. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    [strike]Hibachi[/strike]

    Bunsen Burner

    I can say that, because short people have a good sense of humour about being short. It also gives us a very competitive attitude so that we can thrive amongst the giants of stature, if not ability and virtue.


    [​IMG]
  18. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    :laugh:

    I have these really distinct memories of some of the games earlier in the season when they were basically running the old sets with AI. He would end up with the ball about 25 feet from the hoop with two seconds left on the clock and have this why-are-you-throwing-me-the-ball look on his face. If it had been another team it would have been pretty comical.
  19. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

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    It ran badly because you've got 2 guys on the floor that are used to being "the man", and no one to divvy it up. It put both guys in situations they aren't used to. Rip can't run around screens without out getting in the way of AI's penetrate and chaos game. AI can't play his game while still keeping Rip involved in his screens game. The reason Stuckey works much better with either of those guys than they do together is because Rodney doesn't need to have plays run for him every other play in order to have a good game. He's much more capable of just scoring in spurts when one of the main scorers is out and still being effecient (which is what he's been doing since AI went out).
    I really think the whole "hitting the wall" thing was exaggerated. He was playing fantastic until Rip went to the bench. At that point, the offense went from balanced to AI, AI, AI, Rip, Rip, Rip, and rinse and repeat. Iverson was "comfortable" because most of the game he didn't have to share touches with Rip, and "Rip" was the only guy touching the ball when he was on the floor. It resulted in Rip/AI combining for about 40 shots a game, and everyone else picking up the scraps. Just look at Rodney's shot attempts per game during that period of time.

    As soon as Iverson went out, the wall disappeared, and Rodney's back. I don't buy that as a coincidence.

    5 games w/ AI out: 16.4ppg (52.5% FG), 4.2rpg, 4.8apg, 1.2 spg. He's shot at least 50% from the field in every single game. I just don't see how a "wall" is involved.
  20. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    But Rod scored 40 with AI and Rip and 38 with AI.

    Fluke?

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